[Autumn]

This is more of a discussion piece than a 'please nerf this now' piece, I feel as if autohits are too strong, way too strong for their own good, simply put they do too much damage and have generally just better uses than basic attacks 95% of the time, whilist not falling behind on damage either.

I can only hope that this topic is seriously considered as a discussion piece, before any threads are brought up on the problems.

I raise this now because I feel as if basic attacks are rewarding, but autohits have no downsides to them that bring them down in favor of just basic attacking.

Ways to combat basic attacking include:

Stats: CEL, DEF/RES, VIT, FAI, LUC. (Evade, physical/magical resistance, more HP/Critical Evade)

All encompassing items/skills: Fang Faced Shield, Riposte(Counter damage), Lucky Amulet(critical), Cobra's Snake Dancer, Protect(Metalaegis)

Specific attack vs items/skills: Bellplate, Spirit Mirror, Blade Barrier, Bullet Barrier(Guns and bows), Stalemate/Eviter(Sword/Axe/Spear)

Any sort of DR also helps against basic attack.

Ways to combat autohitting someone to death:

Stats: DEF/RES, VIT.

All encompassing items/skills: Evasion, Green scaled tunic(But only with Evasion!), Cobra's Snake Dancer

Specific attack vs items/skills: Eviter(Sword/Axe/Spear only)

Any sort of DR also helps vs Autohitting

There are MANY more things to combat basic attack spam than autohitting spam, and basic attacking itself is already a high risk system that requires a hit check, a critical check, and requires specific stats to be spread into.

That being said, I think autohit damage is too high, specifically soldier autohits, why invest into basic attacking when you can autohit ALL your threats away, while basic attacking only works on things you can hit/crit, are not protected by something, and that might even be thwarted by Stalemate/Eviter/Counter damage.

Personally, my opinion is that Kensei autohits sit at the medium of what an autohit SHOULD be in terms of damage, their scalings are perfect enough so that their utility, FP costs and damage are manageable to deal with on any character.

So discuss, do you think autohits are fine? Do you think they're too strong?

[Fern]

Unfortunately I don't have a big wall of text like many people, though I might as well toss in my opinion based on my experience with autohits.

I wouldn't say they're all much better than basic attacks. Don't get me wrong though-- there's definitely some big offenders (like Soldier autohits as mentioned previously).

I've seen many builds made for autohits (and only that), but most of the 'absurd' ones I've met involve either Soldier, or Peddling Wheel.

I would be okay with bringing them down to 'Kensei levels' though. Or maybe just tone down the worst problems, if the former is not an option.

Of course, I only expect problems from physical autohits. Not anything involving magic (unless I'm missing something).

[Autumn]

The problem is mostly physical autohits in this sense, magic can be built against more often than not with elemental resistance.

[Neus]

My solution to autohits was adding cooldowns to them, but no one seemed to like that idea.

[Autumn]

I think adding cooldowns to the autohits would be a good idea if the cooldowns were suited to their damage, the only problem with adding cooldowns to autohits is stuff like Reaver stance, and Verglas, which are meant to flow together their autohits...

It's worth a try, but I'd much prefer just a damage decrease overall, more specifically to soldier autohits, to be quite honest.

[Neus]

Personally I think cooldowns are the better solution. Soldier shouldn't have its powerful skills gutted on the assumption you are going to use them twice in a row to double up on damage, at least not now that we have another way to limit spamming them.

[Autumn]

Oh no, they're not being used twice in a row, they're currently being used in a rotation effectively, and I don't think cooldowns would change much other than give a grace period for people to move in, there's enough autohits in the game to get around that.

[Neus]

In what rotation are they being used effectively?

[Exxy]

A cooldown would prevent someone from Charge>Shinken'ing you across the map repeatedly or to Charge>Retreating Swipe you to an extremely annoying degree (although not entirely unless we add a cooldown to Charge's special effects instead of the skills themselves).

But I would also say cooldowns may solve some of the issues but they don't solve -all- of them (albeit I'm having trouble thinking of more instances they can be abused that cooldowns don't help with if done correctly). It could be a semi-decent start if we can pass it.

EDIT: Sorry for multiple edits when both of you are probably trying to read this.

[Lolzytripd]

I'm against cooldowns on stuff that honestly don't deserve it

Verglas is already balanced around itself, Kensei is fine, Monk is fine, Peddling wheel just lacks punishment because its got more range than sidecut.

The only autohits that cause cancer are Demonhunter/soldier