[K Peculier]

Strength has a lot lacking for it right now; which is ironic given its name.

A buff giving some extra 'oomph' should satisfy a lot of the melee weapons that scale off it.

It's not very rewarding to pump strength and the only real benefit to it is carrying more junk. (Elemental attack is given to every stat so don't argue with me on that subject.)

And equipping heavy armors are more often than not worse than the boons you get from light armors and unarmored ones.

As for Dev's comment on making it more of a 'tank' stat. Despite my hatred for almighty tanks -- I actually don't mind all that much if it goes that path for giving STR something extra.

Although my vote goes for giving STR more 'damage' somehow.

[Stenzio]

Please can we just stick to the originally suggested idea as Sawrock and Snake remarked on? We are making things unnecessarily complicated overall. To be honest tanks have taken enough of a hit to a point I'd dare say they won't be a problem anymore (at least the most problematic ones being the 'almighty MA tanks of destiny' no longer being so potent). So I am actually more concerned about -further- nerfing them to any possible amount at this point, really. But, I am getting off track.

Really, just want to full on ditch this talk of penetration, and go back to the original idea. 'More HP, More Crit Damage'. Given strength tends to relate to muscle and physical fitness? This still makes a lot of sense to me.

TL;DR: Please let's stop taking regard to this matter of 'DR Penetration'. I also agree with K; rather okay with the idea of Strength actually being more of a 'worthwhile' stat. At one point Will was lackluster, but it got buffed. Now Strength is the most lackluster as it doesn't give much.

The originally suggested idea is more than enough of a buff in all honesty. I am for namely 'More HP, More Crit Damage' end of things to some degree. Maybe not as much of a buff to crit damage as guile gives obviously, but 'some' fraction of increased damage on crit sounds nice. As does it giving more HP as it makes sense for someone physically fit and muscular to actually take a hit better than someone who isn't, right?

[Lolzytripd]

Giving Str crit damage encroaches the vicious cycle of the crit build mandatory stat tax.

I need str for damage, I need skill to hit, I need luc to crit, I need guile for more damage....theres other stats?


% def pen on str doesn't make it magically do more damage on people without def, its not a flat +x% damage, it makes str better at punching holes into tanks. Increasing crit damage would not, tanks already have obscene crit evade with bleached fang, BK, and Faith, so crit damage isn't even a factor in tanks since its not reliable beyond the vorpal enchant.

[Autumn]

Lolzy raises a decent point, STR should be more about getting damage, not turning it into a tank stat, if STR was only worth while as a defensive stat then it'd sort of lose any semblance of theme, making it give critical damage only serves to make Duelists and VAs benefit from this, turning it into a tank stat only opens up a slew of problems and brings us even further into tank boxer meta, to the point of no return.

If it were to give only weapon power, whether to the weapon itself or because of some people's concerns about tank autohit meta, on basic attacks only, perhaps that'd alleviate some issues as to whether STR is worth or not, this might help with the problem.

After all, a lot of us were concerned that WIL giving straight up 25% elemental attack would be too much, yet here we are and people are loving building WIL on their mages now, and even non-mages, so I think maybe giving 1 WPN power per 2, or even 1 WPN power per 3 or 4 scaled STR, could potentially be the solution here, and not ridiculous ideas like giving more critical damage to duelists and void assassins (STR should be worth to everyone.) as well as not giving more HP to STR autohit tanks like boxer

[KhalidtheGrey]

Okay, let me get this straight. So if you build very specifically, you can ignore people's defense by either being an Arbalest or getting your hands on Geldoran and a 20 power or better weapon. Assuming the opponent isn't a Black Knight since they can just fix defense shred. Okay, so why do all other Strength builds and all Str weapons that can't reach near or above 20 not deserve to be able to do something about tanks? What about the people running Holy or Blessed so they can hit the 50-60 across-the-board vampires meaningfully or hit that 400 evade rogue meaningfully (due to evasion with other reductions and their innate tank stats)? They can't build crit without being inferior to other builds after all, especially since Strength weapons have a tendency to scale for shit crit-wise anyway. This is not a sound argument on why Str doesn't need an offensive buff. This is a good example of something that could potentially stand to be nerfed though. Stacking defense shred and damage amps since they work on nearly everyone and only BKs and the odd VA can deal with it.

On the subject of Bonus Weapon Power vs Def Pen. Def Pen, please. It's a damage increase either way which is what the crit builds give, but it doesn't universally screw everything. Tanks are the only ones getting affected by it. Squishy dodge builds don't need even more frailty when compared to a heavy weapon fighter. Particularly when autohits can hit harder than basic attacks quite readily if you're not a crit build.

The notion of 'I don't want to see Boxer get Armor Penetration to make them even crazier' just means they need more nerfs, specifically to their raw damage, and isn't a reason to deny a stat getting buffed.

What Sawrock brought up is an interesting idea and I like it, concerning splitting statuses between magical and physical and relegating their defenses to something other than sanctity (because screw corrupted, right?), however it's off topic and should get it's own thread.

[Snake]

Thing is, it will polarize the combat to two roles. Damage Dealers vs Tanks. (aka VAs/Arbas vs BK) In a game that got recently changed to be customable. Defense Penetration in a game where DEF is not really what makes you tank (see: Wraithguard, Evasion, Damage Reduction item/equipment effects, Armor and Magic Armor.) won't be really something nice to have, or just straight up dumb to implement (as in, waste of time) in my sincere opinion. Atleast for Autohits.

There's still a role called 'Brawlers' (aka Duelist) who want to be even on the dodge, while being able to take a hit. (And those are the ones who often SUFFER to Rampaging, as I've mentioned before.) They don't need to be crossed out of the game because of a stat buff.

Trust me and stick to the original post people, Jesus Christ. We're getting nowhere if this discussion keeps branching so much to 'what else to implement' versus 'what we need', to the point it's slowly making me upset.

Like I said in like 3 posts now, if it's not enough, we can review it anytime with another thread. Let's just PLEASE have a buff implemented before going wild on more ideas.

[Autumn]

I think I've tried to make it apparent that straight up weapon power would be a better buff than critical damage or defense penetration

Difference between defense penetration and critical damage is there is none, it's all percentages in the end.

Difference between flat weapon power and the aforementioned is that Flat weapon power is flat, and can be controlled, which is why I think flat melee weapon power is just a better idea than what I had before about defense penetration, which I'd like to make clear that I do not support that anymore.

[Shujin]

Except that they are also modified by percentage. And even worse, by autohits. I really don´t want to see a 60scaled str boxer getting another +30 Scaled weapon attack for his Schwarzsturm game which ups it to another +54 (Just from SS)

(Read: Please don´t buff autohit meta)

[Autumn]

Except that they are also modified by percentage. And even worse, by autohits. I really don´t want to see a 60scaled str boxer getting another +30 Scaled weapon attack for his Schwarzsturm game which ups it to another +54 (Just from SS)

(Read: Please don´t buff autohit meta)

That's a problem with Boxer, I don't see any demon hunters going around and killing 80% DR tanks with autohits alone.

One class should not limit the benefit of many others, such was an argument when WIL was due for a buff, most of the skepticism was due to how youkai abilities scale purely elemental attack, therefore adding more would only astronomically send it's damage higher than any other class, and while that still holds true, Evokers and Hexers and various other mages all benefited from that Shujin, why should we let one out liar dictate buffing a less than meaningful stat? On top of that, I believe that Demon Hunters and other autohit classes don't actually deal scary enough damage to make this change anything too impactful.

However with the upcoming (possible) shchwarz change, this can only serve to benefit STR as a stat, otherwise it'd call for a scaling change to every weapon that doesn't scale STR, because that's what's sparked this entire discussion in the first place.

[KhalidtheGrey]

Agreed with Spo here. Butcher Boxer's insane Schwarz Sturm. Personally? I'd cut it down to a quarter, maybe. There's not a lot of counterplay against that mechanic so why should it be so strong? But, off topic and I doubt we need another nerf boxer thread. Or do we?