[Trexmaster]

For a long time now, I've felt myself drifting further and further away from the majority of the community. What I see as silly or immersion breaking, they welcome with open arms and take genuine joy in doing. Some of my issues I've taken up with the appropriate parties, but confronting -everyone- about how they play the game would likely just be seen as hostile, so I've left it alone for the most part, until now.

I would point to the 'funny quotes' thread, but it seems most of the images that would be relevant to my case are dead now. Instead, I'll provide a few text based samples of what I'm talking about. Yes, these are all real examples. I've censored names.


EXAMPLE A: Taking Game Mechanics Literally.

Person 1 says "Think they commonly go by Raijin."
Person 1 says "And then the enhancement--uhhh...I'unno what it's called. But apparently it hits even harder when you hit weak sots. Or some fancy shit like that."
Person 2 says "Harder when you hit weak spots....Vorpal? "
Person 1 says "--Yeeeah, that's it."
Person 1 says "Then it's made outa' that material that makes it a good uh, castin' tool."
Person 3 says "...Conduiz."
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Person A says "Naturally the one that seems 'strongest' is often the most basic and tried techniques."
Person B says "You mean the dark magicians?"
Person A says "Practioners of dark magic and pain specificly yes."
Person A says "Channeling pain, hatred and anger. Extremely effective."
Person B chuckles. "Yeah, those tend to be a pain. I just know a little bit of dark magic and fulgurmancy, but the rest... I just kinda suck at."
Person A says "Yet with how often the tactic is utilized, becomes predictable."
Person B says "Have you gotten used to it in a way that helps you?"
Person A says "Of course. But it will do me no good in 'true' battles."
Person B says "-- You mean how in a 'real' battle the opponent might do something entirely different?"
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Person A says "I've gotten to the point in my cooking training where somehow... for some reason... my general lack thereof of physical ability is somehow hindering my advancement in the culinary arts."
Person A says "Don't ask me how, I just know that's how it is."
Local OOC Person B: I really hate people who take game mechanics literally
Local OOC Person A: Oh we are probably not gonna get along that well then.

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Person 1 says "Divine Shower?"
Person 2 says "Yep."
Person 1 says "Quite the Invocation."
Person 2 says "Unfortunate that there's a huggesoan spell that does it better."
Person 3 says "I promised not to use dark magic."
Person 1 says "It is not for him.... I ask he not learn it."
Person 1 has a serious tone to his voice....
Person 1 says "Are you referring to Wretched Oil?"
Person 3 says "I-I have a idea..."
Person 1 says "Yes.....?"
Person 3 says "Healers in the back use that spell rescue and then Mages use Blink. to get out of there."
Person 1 says "Yes. I mean out of combat though..."

Referring to game mechanics in character verbatim, or so closely you might as well be. This has become a commonly accepted thing with the majority of the community, as far as I can tell. It's fine if everyone's on the same page, but it can become an issue when suddenly a player is applying game mechanic logic to another person's character who -isn't- using such logic. It stifles creativity.

Personally I think this should be kept to a minimum. Discussion about the meta ICly shouldn't even be done at all, it's only really understandable if your character is standing in the arena all day doing nothing but sparri--oh, wait. (this is a joke). Seriously though. This also applies to suddenly gaining understanding of things like Lore Question thread answers ICly (without proper IC logic behind why they'd know that), or ICly discussing update changes (things like new areas are understandable, new weapons are iffy, balance changes should really not be discussed IC). I don't have relevant examples for these two points, but I've personally witnessed it.


EXAMPLE B: Inserting OOC references into IC.

Person A says "How old 're ya?"
Person B she's su-yung.
Person C waves idly at the Shaitan.
Person A ikr
Local OOC Person Su-Yung: jesus christ i almost spat out my drink
Person A says "... Guess you could say."
Person A says "You're Su-Yung."
Person Su-Yung says "...What?"
Person Su-Yung says "Yes, that's my surname."
Person A says "Otherworldly puns, don't mind me."
Person Su-Yung stares blankly.
Person C what's this, stupid jokes make her laugh.
Person A says ".. See? She gets it."
Person A says "I mea-- oh, I'm sorry."
Local OOC Person Su-Yung: Can we ban Person A for stealing a joke from OOC? This is permaban material
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Person 1 says "I mean, I remember reading this series once... actually no wait I'm currently following it. Basic premise is, there are these two teens, one male, one female. They're both in the student council for this school for prestigious people and are both sorta geniuses that like each other. Thing is, they're oblivious to that fact, and because of the hyper competative nature of their life style, they both share a mutual belief that whoever confesses first is essentially relegated to a non-controlling roll in the relationship."
Person 1 says "So the entire series is just about these two trying to play intense high level mind games in otherwise average day to day situations to try and get the other to confess first."

Incidents like this happen every so often, but it's aggravating every time I see it. The Fourth Wall has suffered too much abuse. Please don't break it more than you have to. A cheap joke every now and then with friends is fine, but disrupting the public RP scene with things like this will throw people right out of the pool and make it very difficult to regain their immersion. I never saw Person Su-Yung ever again after this, so. A bit disheartening.

And it should go without saying, for the love of all that's holy, don't reference real life media, or anything from real life that doesn't translate into SL2 at all by lore.

EXAMPLE C: Ridiculous GM Events.

A duckneck neck extends out of the sky, going down to grab a sandwich with its duck-teeth. "Weh." It then extends its neck back into the sky.

To give this context, this was a GM Narrate broadcasted into Cellsvich. I can't really censor who did it, but I won't name names anyways.

I'd provide more examples, but one of the ones I was looking for is missing at the moment, if it even exists. There's been more than one, you'll just have to take my word on it. And no it's not just involving Ducknecks.

Whether one thinks "ha, this is funny, I like it" or "I find this to be immersion breaking and ridiculous" has been a dividing line between the community, where thus far the former is seems to either far surpass or be far louder than the latter. I fall into the latter--I believe that while it is understandable that GM's have creative license to do as they please with the setting bar some major plot points, I find cases like this to be questionable.

Where do we draw the line with what GM's are allowed to introduce into the game? It's upsetting that I as a player am forced to either ignore the public entirely, or accept the fact that this is canon. Before I go on further, I want to point out this isn't entirely about Ducknecks. They're just the prime example and what most of the community will recognize /especially/ since now they're included in the Pet Kit.

Not really much to be done if the majority supports it, but if anyone else shares similar views about 'goofy' GM injected events, now's the time to share your feelings. (or if you love them that's okay too).



Ultimately, it all seems to boil down to there being two groups of people. One side that embraces fourth-wall breaking humor and RP or are simply neutral/accepting of it, and another that detests it entirely. This thread is to bring this issue to light, because it's been fairly obvious to me that the community has had a silent divide over this. I've been content until now to simply let people have their fun, but I didn't want to let this stew any longer.

Do we try to reach a compromise? Do we tell the minority 'suck it up and deal with it'? I personally think it's impossible to please everyone, but some kind of compromise where the public RP isn't as prone to turning away potential players or attracting less-than-savory ones would be nice.

At the very least, word on how tolerable the first two examples should be--should it be expected to take mechanics at face value? Should the Fourth Wall be liberally broken at every opportunity? A word from the GM team or Dev himself would be nice, otherwise this is a topic for debate.

[Snake]

There are times you have to be serious, there are others you don't. Sadly in SL2, there's never a time to be serious, or a strong reason to and thus, the 'memers' go and take over because why the hell bother log in SL2 to be an AFK statue in Cellsvich or the Arena, waiting for people to feel masochist enough to fight against those OP meta builds with their cheap and weak gimmicks made to fit their IC fighting style? (Note, if those gimmicks win vs meta, you expect them to be seen in the Balance Fu in a blink, oo lah lah.)

Real life is already serious and boring enough.

The problem with our 'world' is that we lack antagonists, and antagonists are also hated because it's unfairly terrible to be one without being a private story's mastermind or a GM's pet to be asking for overpowered mobs to fight against in puny ''events'' that are composed only of PvE and maybe one PvP against a repurposed broken meta build.

Those times where we had people antagonizing and struggling to show how evil they could be, or rather to just put some motion in this rather stale White Knight vs White Knight slice of life game sort of... died... when Romek left, when Haruki died, when Bloeden was executed. No more antagonists. No more reason to do anything except internal conflict and slice of life. The games last attempt to have a worthy villain died with Paravir being ganked by the 4-man anti-god squad that appeared one day and poofed forever (COURTESY OF THE OH SO CALLED ''ELITISTS'', THANK YOU!! Saved the world. Forgot to give y'all a medal. *salt*)

And it was from that day onwards that shit hit the fan. People, when bored, tend to crave for ways to get rid of it, and those ways are often the WORST.

So if we wanna blame anything, blame the lack of things to do and lack of end-game goals. And mainly, the lack of PUBLIC EVENTS, as much as terrible those are because people still need to adapt more to 'when do I have to be serious or not'.

If only Sigrogana was still in war with Oniga, huh? If only nowhere were safe (especially Cellsvich) from Black Beasts, huh?

[Sawrock]

I'm the creator/cause of the ducknecks. While I don't see them as breaking immersion (they can make sense ICly, when compared to other monsters), they certainly do break the mood in some situations.

When Bloeden was executed, my motivation to make true villains (who do villainry because of a motivation, and do evil consistently) was lost. Why would anyone make a villain when good-aligned characters can be safe from your actions (because of the rules), and you can be caught/executed (once again, because of the rules)?

In addition, the setting is highly built against villains. Compared to a sandbox-style game such as Dragon Ball Z Finale/Phoenix, where players make 100% of the economy and "world" (all villages are made by players/etc), SL2 is highly restricting. In making another comparison to DBZ games, people are more likely to OOCly dislike their character dying in SL2 than to DBZ games due to the lack of an afterlife and wipe system. I know that while I don't regret having Bloeden die, I do miss RPing him and feel sad I'll never get to roleplay him on SL2 ever again.

What SL2 does well is two things. The combat system- turn-based on Byond is far superior for roleplay due to two factors, roleplay being easier to type in a turn-based environment, and the lag not affecting fights nearly as much as in an action game. The other thing it does well is give a reasonable level cap- while it takes time to reach Level 60, it isn't TOO bad, and with the Great Reckoning no one fears making a new character (besides the gear grinding). Both of these points contrast DBZ games- roleplay is often repeated in combats due to the action system, leading to tedious results (once for starting combat, once again for every time someone enters combat, again for kill RP (up to three times for each time the person regains consciousness while you type your roleplay), etc), and while the newer DBZ games may have a stat-cap, having power level is in itself a system that promotes endless grinding.

While I know many would disagree with me, having an afterlife/wipe/sandbox system as well as removing the permission-for-combat/kill rule could provide much better villain/conflict roleplay. Donation items would need a way to transfer between wipes, which would create less of a need for them (I currently have over 300 dollars in house donation items due to needing to make new houses), but I think ultimately it would create a better environment, and roleplay, for the game, and conflict within the game.

[Soapy]

I'm in full agreement with the OP, but I have to say I think it's too far down the line for this post to have any positive results.

[Selfish Gene]

Alright, so let me take this first paragraph to clarify that albeit being a member of the community for so many years now, I have only been taking the time to come out of my shell and provide my insight as of late. It took me a very long time to figure myself knowledgeable enough to provide my two cents on the matter in fear that I would be judged and whatnot. I think it's safe to say that I had to promptly get rid of that mentality because no matter what anyone says or does on the internet, it's bound to spark controversy and complaints. But I digress since this is redundancy at its finest.

This thread was brought to my attention by a friend since they know I enjoy being part of the loop and as such, I took the time to read everyone's points. I will address my opinions in sections, much like Trex graciously did to make this far easier to read.

Example 1 - Taking Game Mechanics Literally
Although I can understand how aggravating it must be to look in any direction and see options as you've shown take place, it's honestly a part of human nature. It's in our nature to take the information that we are aware of, whether it be ICly or OOCly, and implement it in some way, shape, or form. Let me show what I mean by each individual portion:

a. It isn't some form of atrocity to refer to a weapon by the name/lore/description/etc. that Dev has given it. It's entirely up to the player to decide whether or not they want to change how it is. Not everyone wants to roleplay the Raijin as exactly that, the Raijin. Some people, however, find comfort in doing so. People find comfort in lore and justification and enjoy that safe-space. Same applies for catalysts and enchantments. Trex gives the example of referring to something as "Vorpal"... That's not wrong though. Proper IC enchanting is so uncommon that it's honestly a breath of fresh air when I see someone taking the time and actually refer to the system. I've seen very well-written posts in regards to enchanting, catalysts, etc. Simply because it's not your cup of tea doesn't mean it's "game breaking" and "ruins immersion".
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b. Referring to classes/skills/etc. ICly rather than coming up with an ingenious manner of roleplaying it. The same rule applies, comfort. Some people find it by making their own interesting ideas, such as runes instead of magic. That's fine. I don't think outlawing or shunning players that want to actually utilize and acknowledge they're fulgurmancers/altermancers/pyromancers/etc. I have roleplayed characters who were genuine parts of their actual class. I have played Hexers who would roleplay "Black Bubble" as an actual bubble of dark magic, I have played Monks who have roleplayed "Setting Sun" as channeling their Ki into an actual spherical "sun", per se. With that said, I have come up with interesting ways of doing similar things as well. If someone wants to refer to the information Dev and other players have provided, that's honestly up to then and is no way a detriment to the "state of RP".
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I won't bother going into detail with the remaining ones since it's essentially the same information I have already shared. If they want to roleplay themselves as being physically limited from expanding their knowledge on a crafting? Let them. I wouldn't look at them and put on a siren saying it was this atrocity that they're referring directly to the skill level max. Same applies for Divine Shower/Wretched Oil/etc. Albeit personally not a fan of using the actual names too literally, some people do. I wouldn't bat an eye at someone who claims to be an outright Evoker who uses an invocation called Vydel to cast a tornado. They do what they want to do. This is a roleplaying game and everyone has the right of doing as they wish without reason.

Example 2 - OOC into IC
I will admit that Trex does have a point with this... to a degree. It would have been a better if they provided more examples than just those two so we can differentiate between what is mild and acceptable versus what is severe and outright horrible. The example they shared is a desperate attempt to try and squeeze every last drop of water of a joke. I wouldn't say this personally makes me uncomfortable and consider it immersion-breaking, but it's definitely "cringy", so to speak. There are certain things that can be acceptable and funny if it's a slight OOC reference inserted into IC, but to make claims that it ruins roleplay and whatnot is purely based on opinion. There are countless factors that can play a role in this. Is it humourous for the player? Is it outright metagaming? I know I will get responses to that in regards to "IC is strictly IC and no OOC should play a role in it"... but that argument is flawed. How we roleplay our characters is purely fueled by our OOC thoughts and actions. We the players that control what our characters will say or do, not a randomly generated box of text. If someone overhears something funny that can apply ICly, chances are they will try and implement in some way. Sometimes it's done more smoothly than others. Both examples Trex provided are ones of people who weren't subtle by any means but some of these "OOC into "IC" moments are genuinely humorous.

Example 3 - Ridiculous GM Events
Let me set things straight here, I have enjoyed very few GM events as a whole. Not because they were ridiculous, but because the vast majority of them have one element in common. PVP. Don't get me wrong, I occasionally dabble in PVP because it can be fun at times and a great way to unwind and spark some interesting RP. I understand full well and have participated in events that were purely RP, or even ones that implemented silly things such as WHOEVER GATHERS THE MOST ARENA BADGES IN THIS SPAN OF TIME WILL BE GRANTED ONE WISH. These were fun to me and I genuinely appreciated being part of them. People who frequent the arena often are most likely subjected to enough PVP as is and showering them in more PVP via GM events will either be a dream come true or someone's worst nightmare (based on their preference).

Saw and Kunai have made very valuable points in their posts. If we want genuine RP and progression to take place, we need valuable antagonists who are willing to influence some form of tension. I started becoming very invested into SL2 when Saw was still playing Bloeden. He made such a name for himself that his character alone was the equivalent of having a "Lore" quote. People knew about him, he was infamous, the very mention of his name was the equivalent of someone mentioning "Jack the Ripper" in Victorian England. This tension of "When will he strike next!?" and "When will he be caught!?" sparked a good chunk of roleplay that I genuinely enjoyed. Nowadays? It's purely slice of life. Why is it purely slice of life? Since SL2 essentially shrugs off people who want real villains. People who try to make interesting RP with villains? People will jump in and either end it far too soon or people will start bickering about how it ruins immersion or how bad they are at it. It all seems redundant and pointless.

The Duckhead example? Purely situational as well. Some people find it absolutely ridiculous and lore-breaking, other people find a good laugh in something completely random taking place.

Conclusion
Needless to say, there isn't much that can genuinely be done regardless. As Soapy said, if it genuinely is as bad as some people think it is, it's already too far gone to "change back". It's nice to see Trex sharing their opinions and concerns on the matter, sparking conversation is how change is made after all. The issue here is that people need to realize that everything is a melting pot in the end. BYOND is already filled with people of different backgrounds, whether it be ethnic, religious, or even personal experiences. Every human being is a unique individual and it's practically impossible to tailor a game that will benefit and play to everyone's liking. People have most likely read Trex's post and have gone "I agree wholeheartedly" while others have gone "This is total bullshit". At the end of the day, just remember:

1. What Trex wrote is their thing.
2. What Kunai wrote is their thing.
3. What Saw wrote is their thing.
4. What Soapy wrote is their thing.
5. What I wrote is my thing.
6. What anyone else thinks/says is their thing.

It's a shame that people who genuinely dislike the current state of the game to be how it is but it goes both ways. There will always be one or many outcasts, regardless of how you work around things. I find myself in the neutral side of things and am honestly quite happy being here. I'm fine with some people loving me to bits and others hating me. I'm fine with the game being silly but I wish that it was taken a bit more seriously at times. All that I know is that no matter what is said or done, not everyone will be pleased with everything.

[Autumn]

Pretty much I am of the mindset that I tolerated the community for the longest time, when I was new and first getting into this game I didn't really see how bad it was, but after a while and after meeting a few people, I've slowly grown more and more bitter towards the community as a whole, but that is not to say I cannot appreciate the value of each person, and I have seen many'a'people improve and I think its a bit unfair to all lop them off into one single group of insufferables, but rather those who need to be aware of the concern that many other people have with the quality of roleplay in public areas such as the arena and in Cellsvich, and they need to be aware of their impact of disturbing someone's (little) immersion through their own roleplay.


On the subject of in game mechanics into roleplay
For example, if you were to fight someone, say they are a lightning themed swordsman character, its no doubt they're probably using a Raijin, it would be bad taste to come out and say "Hey wait I know that weapon, its a Raijin isn't it?" when they've been RPing it as perhaps just a regular broadsword enhanced with lightning (Someone playing a Beldam Knight could do this), or conductive metal wires wrapped around a sharp pointed sheet of metal (A street brawler, perhaps), it is stuff like this that I see as inherently poor behavior, and can lead to disagreements OOCly and/or ICly.

That is why, even with the information you are provided, it is NOT ok to just use it willy nilly, to try and sound like you know things, that is why it is better to stay vague about things, compliment the lightning based sword, not the raijin.

However if someone wishes to stay within their comfort zone and want to try and RP that Raijin as a Raijin, and has made it clear that they are (or you can throw them a nice question in looc), then feel free, it is no one's business to try and dictate how you RP, but it is their own business to determine the quality of said RP.

On the subject of inserting OOC references into IC

There's no way you can put this without it sounding like a bit of a reach, at the end of the day, putting a Jojo meme or Persona meme into what your character says is a huge break for at least a good solid chunk of the community, I assure you that occassionally this sort of behavior is fine, perhaps the stoogiest of the stooge will get on your case, but once in a while this isn't very bad, but when your character's playby is a Jojo character, running around and punching people while screaming things you'd normally hear in Jojo, you've crossed the line at that point, that is a very poor character and only serves to break roleplay quality.

This is not to say that the occassional reference isn't fine, but do practice your memes in moderation, please.

Also, if a tree memes in the woods and only his friends are around to hear it? Who cares? Go nuts elsewhere, as I have brought up before, my post is in concern of public RP.

Ridiculous GM Events

I can choose to ignore these so my opinion is not very relevant, my only related comment on this matter is on the subject of ducknecks, which I thought were dumb to begin with so I did what I normally did, ignore them, now that its sort of canon with pet kits, I don't know what else to think, I think I'd still just ignore them but I am forced to canonically acknowledge them now I guess.

[Neus]

While I know many would disagree with me, having an afterlife/wipe/sandbox system as well as removing the permission-for-combat/kill rule could provide much better villain/conflict roleplay. Donation items would need a way to transfer between wipes, which would create less of a need for them (I currently have over 300 dollars in house donation items due to needing to make new houses), but I think ultimately it would create a better environment, and roleplay, for the game, and conflict within the game.

I don't know if this would help foster any better RP. RP quality is entirely up to the people doing it. By removing the need for consent, all you're doing is giving bad RPers a venue to ruin other peoples' days. Furthermore, it would only intensify the mentality that people have of sitting inside of Cellsvich all day, because that would obviously be a safe spot.

[Sawrock]

RP quality also depends on the system that the roleplay takes place in; otherwise, there wouldn't be different roleplay games on Byond, as different games offer different advantages and disadvantages towards certain types of roleplay.

For example, some SS13 servers have the clown role. Those servers with the role tend to have goofier, non-serious roleplay. Those without the role tend to have more dramatic, serious roleplay. It's not just the people doing the roleplay that counts, it's the system the roleplay takes place in as well.

In addition, having a character die shouldn't "ruin" someone's day. I've had at least four characters die (Kasan, Bloeden, Falke Githens, Skullman), and my day was only ruined on one (Kasan, but that was due to the specific scenario involving such). Roleplay characters dealing with other roleplayer's actions shouldn't be seen as punishment, it should be seen as a way to react in-game, to enhance roleplay, to increase immersion. Ultimately, roleplay characters are tools to have fun. We're here to roleplay, because we enjoy it- and if we get too OOCly attached to our characters, that can create problems.

And for those who'd still want to roleplay that specific character? That's where a wipe system would come into play. Wait a few wipes, and then play them again- except, due to some other people having different characters, we'd all have new experiences.

It'd also solve the problem of having too many Byond keys for the game, certainly. Why make a new character every month (when you get bored of your old character) when you can just wait for the wipe and then make a new character?

[Grandpa]

I believe Soapy is right in this situation. It's too little too late for any kind of dramatic change. As much as I'd like a wiping system myself, I think most people would be extremely angry that all of their characters were deleted after all of their hard work. We'd need many, many changes for a wiping system in SL2 to work, but it might be worth testing on a separate server.

Otherwise, I believe antagonists or a better system that allows antagonists to exist may be a good start. Something to keep stale RP from taking place and people just memeing it up. I'm not sure anything can really be changed by how people roleplay things in the game- Raijins and vorpal enchants are things in the game, after all. Though it should be obvious in cases like "I need levels to get my X skill up!" that this is just a mechanic and you can't treat that as IC. I mean, at the very least you could say that after a certain number of levels you've just gotten inspired or something. There are ways to approach that without making bring mechanics to light. As long as everyone doesn't assume things, people can go ahead and IC use Raijin and other people can IC use their Sharp Stun Batons (mechanically a Raijin) or something like that.

I think telling people straight to their face that mechanics aren't always what's going on IC could be an important change. At the very least, it would solve a lot of situations with items and combat. I see something in a certain player's descriptions, and I wholeheartedly believe it should be told to people- "Don't always treat mechanics as fact! Roleplaying details always take priority." It just seems like people forget that, these days.

[Nanovelich]

I wasn't going to say anything, because I felt that having only returned recently and never having really gotten super involved in the first place, my aged opinion would be for moot.

Thankfully, Spoops addressed a lot of those points in roughly the same way I would have, so I'll simply say I agree in whole with what he said to each point. (Aside from Duckneck, perhaps. It's very goofy and dumb, yes, but there are plenty of other goofy and dumb things in SL2 for the sake of being lighthearted. Duckneck just stands out and seems to get a lot more bashing than it, as a single whimsy little joke, deserves in my eyes.)


What I came to address instead is the idea of implementing a wipe system. I respect you, Sawrock, but I think you're overlooking some things. Allow me to point out exactly why a wipe system isn't necessary on a game like SL2.

Grandpa posted as I wrote the rest of this, so I will preface this whole spiel by saying:

We'd need many, many changes for a wiping system in SL2 to work, but it might be worth testing on a separate server.

Yes, I agree, because my entire argument is on how SL2, as it is, absolutely does not support a wiping system.

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First, why do SS13 and DBZ games have to have wipes? Why do we never see any server on these games clip the wipe timer, never wipe, and still succeed? Because in both these games, a wipe must serve as a failsafe for when shit gets fucked.

SS13 takes place in a fully destructible station where a black hole can be more easily crafted up than wiring in a new light placement. That's the easiest example, but if you've played SS13 enough like I'm sure plenty of us have, you know that if someone's robust enough, they can completely destroy the station's habitability with minimum door access and only five minutes of work.

DBZ games, at least the ones I'm assuming you're talking about, Sawrock, are actually worse. You've already pointed out the power level system. Wipes serve to firstly remove all the endless grinders from the absolute top of the food chain, as it's quite literally impossible to ever really catch up to them as a new player or even an older player once they've reached a certain level, and secondly to serve as, again, a fail-safe for when shit gets fucked. In this case, all the planets can be blown to hell and remove the ability for people to even spawn characters from those planets. I've been on wipes long enough that the only two remaining planets are Earth and the Desert planet.

So point one, the wipe is meant to serve as a fail-safe more than anything, not something that was really meant to entice you to try all sorts of new things each wipe. That's just people taking the wipe system and adapting to it for the better, as they very well should.

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Second, what does SL2 have that would really not benefit from wipes? Too much commitment to each character. I don't mean OOC attachment that comes from that I'm talking about. I'm talking about just how much more effort you put into creating a character on SL2 in comparison to SS13 and DBZ games. Even in very serious DBZ games with closed communities, private servers, and serious commitment to actually roleplaying it all as best as possible, you only put about three things into your character.

A name.
A choice of icon and overlays.
How you want them to act.

Then you're good to go and couldn't do much more if you wanted to. It's time to start endlessly grinding for number increases because that's what the rest of your commitment to the character is going to be aside from learning new skills and perhaps spreading your seed to produce much more gifted individuals who will likely be loyal enough to help you survive as well.

Let's not even point out what 'commitment' you put into an SS13 character. While varying with server quality, the general answer is bare minimum.

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SL2 has profiles, face icons, class choices, class skill choices, and gear.

You have to put some effort in just to get your character looking like a character with cropping icons, resizing, dumping into a DMI... Effort varies, but with wipes, you can be sure effort put into this would fall off drastically, for a reason I'll point out further down.

Each piece of gear itself takes more commitment than the other two games. If we're talking about a wipe system, throw the player market out of the window. No one's going to be mass producing items to sell at autobots when a) they don't get fully long-term hold of the profits, and b) someone who might be interested in killing them more than anything else could just as easily buy them. Getting good gear is going to be almost entirely left up to you and the very few people who fully trust you. That includes getting the item, enchantment catalysts, material change kit if necessary, and enhancement items and then applying them.

With how drop rates are, being forced to rely entirely on them would be a horrible experience, but that's what would happen in a wipe-based system.

And now, what's the deal, with how much effort you put into just getting your character even halfway toward you endgoal in a system like this? If it's wipe-based, you're correct, people will be more inclined to play characters they can be more risky with as a villian since it's not much off their back if the character is lost, due to the eventual wipe. The problem with that is that in wipe-based environments, it's almost always 'whoever started grinding first' who gets to call the shots, and when you have SL2 as a public, open server, it's probably going to be people who care nothing about actually roleplaying and are simply here for the game mechanics.

They won't stop to have some nice roleplay, because they're not in it for roleplay. They'll grind harder than anyone else, then get bored and decide to roleplay the absolute worst villians ever. The kind who are just Sunday cartoon 'I am just evil incarnate!' who run around murdering everything solely on the idea of it being all about 'pleasure' rather than giving their character any real motive or goal aside from being on top.

By removing the need for consent, all you're doing is giving bad RPers a venue to ruin other peoples' days.

This is where what Dev said comes into play. How would you like to join the wipe, be grinding up a character in a B.D.P. or hunting for gear, and then have some level 60 one-line wonder roleplayer come charging at you saying, "Well, you have to accept this is IC now, so prepare to die because I'm just roleplaying my character how they are!" To put it simply, it's bullshit.

On those DBZ games, when my Saiyan would be ripped apart for challenging the authority of the new Changeling overlord that just moved in, I accepted the death, because while it's always the shitty goal of becoming galactic overlord, there's at least a motive behind it. What pisses me off is having aliens drop down to Earth and murdering everyone 'just cause.' Doesn't matter if they're hiding in their houses or not, and there's no real objective besides to perhaps 'claim' the planet. But they win, because it's exactly what I was talking about: they started grinding first and roleplayed shitlords. All IC, so I must 'accept' it.

This does NOT foster a good roleplaying environment. This completely discourages people from actually sitting down to do any real roleplaying. This discourages people from even putting effort into making their profiles or icons look half-decent, since you never know if they'll just get off'd before you can do anything with them and then ruin the usability of the icons and profile you just made. This instead encourages being even more meta than people are now, by grinding endlessly to make sure you don't get one-off'd by the first person you stumble across, and even worse with SL2, everything is purely RNG with drop rates. You can't even commit yourself to grinding harder than these people to get to the top before they do, because they might just get lucky with their drops. Hoorah! Communism in the roleplaying union!

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Now, I said a lot about the wipe system, because I really, really disagree with it for the reasons I just went on and on about and agree with Dev's statement. However, I know where you're coming from with it, Sawrock, and I agree with your intention.

That's why I think having more flexibility with sandbox and afterlife systems would absolutely be a step in the right direction. The problem with that, as SL2 is, is how all the static quests and plots are littered around the game world.

The 'main plot' has always been a problem for the IC environment. It must be ignored, because not all our characters can be fiddling with Kinu in multiple continents, and yet it has such a tight grasp on the world. It's not specifically the main plot, but simply all the things that make SL2 a single-player game.

What we have is a MMORPG system, understandably as that's what SL2 is, where you're 'any other player' on the streets and 'the one trying to help stop Kinu from killing the Gods' in the sheets. This doesn't work for a roleplaying environment, but how do we fix this? I have an idea on that, and I will probably make a suggestion for it once a lot of other things blow over. It's too much for me to suggest here, and this isn't the Suggestion forum anyway.

But I feel like a lot of the choke holds that prevent us from having a more destructible and therefore impressionable world, aside from the underlying game mechanics for it, is this set-in-stone questing and plot system that's left for the single-player experience.

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Afterword: Sorry, I tried to format this as best I could for readability. Forgive me, I wrote more than I could chew in the end.