[Autumn]

Hmm, The thing is, Engineer doesn't get many benefits for building FP related stats, and there's not much way to gather scrap, perhaps you could create a few items via alchemy for engineers that'd be similar to staves, because engineer still gets that item belt increasing passive and seems like it always was the item-centered class right?

I realize the concern with reducing the FP cost on the bots though, perfectly well.


Extendo Claw - 1m - targets scrap within 10 range and brings it directly to you.

Scope Attachment - 1m - upgrades select engineer machine and increases its basic attack range by 5, only one attachment may be active at a time.

Piercing Rounds - 1m -Upgrades select engineer machine to have protection ignoring rounds, (Ignores all DEF), only one attachment may be active at a time.

Any thoughts on this?

[Snake]

I mean, it can stay at 50 FP. But don't forget the 8 round cooldown already does the job on blocking them from being spammed, under that.

The bots should at least last longer than two rounds. It's technically what Raigen said. Not even Youkai use up this much FP at once, and do much, much more than what a bot do. And maybe be a little more durable themselves. I had one little idea to make this happen and not mess much with the FP costs so they can still stay on the theme you want.

Good Materials - +15% HP/FP boost, -10% damage taken (except Lightning and Water) per Rank.

It makes a mild sense to make them more durable against everything, they're machines. And in a balance-wise, they can't be deployed frequently due to the high FP cost and gigantic cooldown attached to their deployment skill, so that justifies why they should stay around for a little more than your normal Youkai.

So, if Medibot, Metalaegis and Turret get tweaked to become more useful, Engineer gets this neat Extendo Claw from Spo's post and Good Materials offer them a little more survivability, it will be all that Engineer will ever need in like, forever.

[DoctorMad]

This thread is increasingly relevant despise being a thread form 2017.(Yes, I realize)

I DESTINY'd as a Rogue and got level 70 bots and truly, I'd say they're a waste of time. No idea how non-destiny engineers are faring, but probably a lot worse.
Fighting bosses is hell. I had to spend a lot of rounds just waiting for my robots to finally kill a Gigas Rex they were dealing ~60 damage to per turn, a painfully slow grind. They're trash in PvP too, engineer turrets have their two abilities worth the time but that's it: Their basic attack will never hit a dodge master who can easily buff himself until turret bots are at -100% hit and medbots are at even lower hit chances. Their only form of damage at that point will be Bullet Shred(3 turn cooldown!) or Bullet Spray(Semi-decent I guess, nevermind that everything else they have is trash). In a game where people can easily jump form one side of the map to another and can easily use one or even two skills that move them around the map each turn, the movement speed of those bots might as well not exist.
There are also some problems related to them having multi-shot guns, which are currently in a... questionable position. I wouldn't bother with this class until it gets a revamp.

[Raigen.Convict]

After playing an Engineer myself, I can see the points made here, they're fairly true. I essentially require Tactician's Volley Formation to make the bots useful for battle, I also am irked they only max at 55 unless using Destiny, at the bare minimum, allow them those last 5 levels, give them 5 movement and give them something to boost their accuracy, maybe a specific skill like the old Upgrade we had removed.

[Autumn]

Probably shouldn't bump almost year old threads, but since its out here, my point still stands, I think additional battle items exclusive to engineer (probably tied to one of their innates) would help the class somewhat, beefing up bot stats might make them catastrophic, as they do have the option of being really strong with destiny.

[DoctorMad]

They do have the option of being really strong with destiny.

Hell no.



It DOES look like adding more stats to bots could make them overpowered but remember they don't get all those special things that players get, and the list of that is very long when you consider that people carefully factor all passives and actives they have.
All the killing power a robot has comes form stats and their trashy multi-hit guns. Players have carefully added together fight bonuses which they slowly gather and stack. To see a character's hit chance, for example, you have to check their passive and active class abilities, their racial passives, their stats, maybe even their item slots and prayer tools and whatever else-- its a long list. A bot gets their Skill, their Luck and their main weapon's base hit rate. Even if we gave them +10 ski their hit chances would still be abysmal in PvP.

[Autumn]

At their best, the bots have pretty decent stats, thats what I was referring to, and if you're going to screenshot my casual banter in the public discord, this is what that comment refers to:




The GUI scaling on Repair is god awful, and is the only reason to run GUI on Engineer in the first place, due to it getting tons of free skill slots from its innate and the rogue innate as well, you can obtain upwards to 40+ skill slots with minimal GUI investment, there's not much reason to run GUI really for Engineers, maybe if it was made so that GUI had some bonus to engi bots, maybe then there'd be a stat for engineer that'd help them out tremendously that isn't just telling them to build straight tank and FP and be a terrible summoner.


But, at the same time, due to the bots with lvl 70 having that one rule where they get +1 to their falloff point for scaled stats, you can actually boost their defenses tremendously high, somewhere probably above 60-65 scaled before they start falling off.

[Chaos]

It DOES look like adding more stats to bots could make them overpowered but remember they don't get all those special things that players get, and the list of that is very long when you consider that people carefully factor all passives and actives they have.

As a GM who has messed with mobs and tested various PvE encounters, this is painfully true with not only Bots, but also NPCs in general. Players hold numerous advantages over PvE enemies and Summons/Bots/etc., and it's one of the primary reasons why people complain about PvE being too easy and boring. This is largely why I tend to throw down mobs with a surplus of power/skills in events, since by the game's PvE standards, it's impossible to give players anything but easily-trampled obstacles.

That being said, even with the +10 to softcaps that Destiny Bots get, I would not call their defenses 'stellar'-- as the screenshots show, they're only better than a player's in that they can rock both DEF and RES, but they also lack Critical Evade, Status Resistance, etc-- nor say they're overpowered in any measure against decent builds. The first thing I would do is make any Bot that utilizes Accuracy checks get as much LUC as they get SKI, and have their GUI replaced by the Engineer's GUI, since they're basically as clever as the person who built them.

I would also like to see Skills on Engineer that either:

A. Allow up to 2~3 of each Bot on the field from one Engineer.
B. Allow the Engineer to double down on Bots, granting them better accuracy/critical/power/DR/etc. Or let them give serious boosts to the Bot in exchange for, say, butchering the Engineer's offensive/defensive capabilities while the Bots are around.

As it stands, the 'Upgrade' skills aren't very friendly towards Bot-centric builds, much unlike the previous iteration of Upgrade, as well. Seriously, they require a ton of Skill Points (getting the base skills, then the upgrade skills alongside the bot skills) if you want to make use of them for Bots and not just PC allies.

[Raigen.Convict]

I agree a lot with what Chaos is saying here. And would love to see this class get some love, as it's definitely underwhelming right now unless you grant the bots serious bonuses. Or build in a way that doesn't even use the bots and just the upgrades.

[Snake]

Well, I've said everything the bots need to be actually impactful at the beginning of this, and not 50 FP down the hatch to Lazarus. Hopefully my points are to be considered too.