[GSM]

Let me point out a few flaws in this entire system.

So, let's start with Autohitters. Autohitters have to build for their weapon's scaling and get it through the roof, disregard accuracy/crit, and do whatever the hell they want with the rest of the stats. You just have to max out your Power, plug stats into your chosen weapon's scaling, and you can successfully shit on people any day, every day. So, then, what do you do with the rest of the stats, you may ask? Why, it's simple; simply pick dodging or tanking, which will 90% of the time be tanking, and invest heavily into it. Then, just because you have enough points to spare, do anything else you want with these stats. Sure, it might cost FP and skill points to do it, but skill spirits are a thing, and so is dumping points into Will, or quite simply, just grabbing FP regeneration. Slap on an elemental badge of your choice for extra damage and, if you build for the Jupiter Badge, critting.

Now, basic attacks. First, you need to build for your weapon's scaling, while being mindful of Power, Accuracy, and Crit. Make sure you're plugging in enough points into Skill and Luck in order to hit in the first place, then Guile for hefty amounts of crit damage. Oh, and get a class that supports basic attacks, and sink in skill points too to buff them up, a la Void Assassin, Kensei, Black Knight, Duelist, Ghost, Lantern Bearer, Martial Artist, Magic Gunner, etc. By this time, you've probably invested points in anywhere from four to five stats, so you don't have a lot of options; build enough Vitality to last a few hits- oh wait, you're out of points now. Oh well, you've become a glassy not-so-strong cannon, that can be parried just as easily as you can be dodged.

Do you see the difference here? To me, basic attacks had a secure position as well as autohits. I was completely fine with how it was, but the basic attack fix has killed a lot of my characters. As everyone has said, Evade has become practically pointless, and basic attacks are not very worth building for if you have to deal with hit/crit chances and the possibility that they can just dodge everything you throw at them. My dual Quickdraw user has suffered a basic attack damage decrease of over 70%, going from maybe a 250 damage burst in one basic attack (which admittedly is a bit insane) to a measly 100 (which is absolutely pathetic for TWO 10* weapons, ON TOP OF ELEMENTAL DRIVE). One of my good friends has a high amount of scaling for his weapon and saw his Hands of the Giant go from 150 on a basic to just under 90, which is huge. Meanwhile, autohitters have just been laughing at the damage they had to worry for get spayed and neutered. Hell, there is literally Black Knight, a class that gives away an asston of anti-crit, and added with Luck and/or high Faith, it can make critting them practically impossible, as well as TWO races (Dullahan and Lich) that either cancel some crit damage or negate crits entirely.

I know that I'm just sounding like a whiny little bitch, but an autohitter is effectively supreme to a basic attacker in every way, shape and form. As of right now, the only reason to ever use crits is if you're using a Moonlight Mercy (in the hopes of doing decent damage with a Quickdraw), or if you're a Duelist, and that is it. I'm sorry about this, Dev, but there is no point in adding a durability point for autohits, since all they have to do is grab a Divine Eye from a quick run into the Colossal Tower. I personally think that the only solutions for this are one or the other- either implement the formula as it was before (which you're adamantly not wanting to do) or evade checks on autohits.

EDIT- The only other solution is to make autohits do less damage than basic attacks, either by (again) bringing up basic attacks, or lowering autohit scaling. Kenseis are especially notorious here, with 140% SWA damage, ascertained by everything sans Cobra or Body of Isesip or partially by Evasion.

[Nanovelich]

There's a problem with a lot of these numbers being reported as far as melee weapons go, but I'm not going to try and calculate through all these unspecific examples. I'd rather just point out what's broken with guns.

With a regular weapon, a very large majority of its total SWA comes from the stat scaling portion. 100% total stat scaling with 60 in each stat? That's 90 from the stat portion. Takes a lot of Weapon Power to make itself look less like a silly little addition at the end. 10 or 20 Weapon Power? Only makes 10 points of difference, boohoo.


But hold on, let's talk guns. Let's talk Quickdraw, since it's been brought up.

Say you're running a Quickdraw with Extended Grip. I have one with 18 power. Scaling is 70% total, so let's pretend I have 60 scaled in each of those stats.

[strike]Stat portion: (60 * 0.7) * 1.5 = 42[/strike]
Stat portion: (60 * 0.7) * 1.5 = 63

Now, a rule on guns: The stat portion of the Scaled Weapon ATK is divided between Rounds.

How big of an impact does this fix have on guns? Let's take a look at these.

Let's assume for very obvious example, we're looking at 8 rounds from the Momentum effect. 3 base, 4 from the Momentum effect on Quickdraw, 1 from Extended Grip.

Your stat portion of[strike]42[/strike] 63 gets divided by 8 for... [strike]5[/strike] 7. That measly [strike]5[/strike] 7 compared to 18 Weapon Power. Certainly the absolute reverse effect we talked about with regular weapons. Especially if it's doubled...

How much of an effect does this fix make to the total damage of this Quickdraw? Wellllllll.........

[strike]Old System: 8 Rounds * (5+18+18) = 8 * 41 = 328 before reductions
New System: 8 Rounds * (5+18) = 8 * 23 = 184 before reductions[/strike]

Old System: 8 Rounds * (7+18+18) = 8 * 41 = 344 before reductions
New System: 8 Rounds * (7+18) = 8 * 23 = 200 before reductions

[strike]56%[/strike] 58% of its previous amount. And remember, we're only even applying these shots one at a time, with all enemy DR and Armor being applied to each one. 21 unreduced damage per hit. That gets reduced to almost nothing with rounding down being in effect as well.


So guns needs to have a fix for this change. Definitely.


Edit: It was pointed out to me that I missed the 1.5 in the stat calculation when I was rushing through this post, despite having written it down. Alters the numbers slightly, but the point still stands.

[Rendar]

Guns pierce armor, as far as I recall. DEF/DR do apply though.

[Snake]

Just give up, lol. He won't change.

And Dev, no need to make something new for autohits, we have Evasion already. Try to give everyone something like Lesser Evasion as a trait (the one from In-Fighter Gi) and then surely autohit damage will drop like hot sosigs.

[Rendar]

Dodging really shouldn't have yet another trait tied to it, unlike def/res which gives percentage DR.

[Ryuzaki]

I'm not going to revert the bug fix, so suggesting that is pointless. Basic attacks still have an edge over autohits; they don't cost FP

Yes, this is an edge... For most classes.

Is it an edge for those that can recover FP willy nilly? (See: HMC and Monk power up) Nah, Dev. Because with a bit of tactical thinking (Or whacking on body of isesip and shukuchi moving) you can recover your FP through powering up and outmove your opponent, especially if they don't rely on long range autohits, meaning your edge is gone.

Also, is it an edge when all this has done is encouraged a new DEF whore meta for at least a few weeks since we're waiting on some kinda autohit dick-kick like your glancing blow system being implemented?

[Lolzytripd]

FP, also known as free points.

I have never seen an FP pool hit 0 since the great reckoning in pvp, gone are the days of pvp between those with sub 200 fp pools, fp sits happily now at 200+ on Almost every character.

FP is a system to keep you from spamming big hits, and also thematic for spells. FP costs are less meaningful than durability used in basic attacks.

ALL auto hits with lower than 60 fp cost, should inherently be weaker than a basic attack with the same weapon.

[Autumn]

I think at this point its much too late to argue what should and shouldn't be, this thread has skewed far from my original intention and that intention was denied, its probably best to leave it be for now and see whats in store for later.

The only thing I am worried for is guns, as Nano brought up, they lost a huge chunk of their damage, and they never even scaled high or well in the first place, making multi shot guns in general just not very worth it to run.

[Snake]

Better just make another thread, telling about how guns, spears, daggers and bows suffered a major hit by this and need a review on their damage, and the fact they don't have a lot of autohits to be used as an excuse to not receive changes.

Fists, swords and axes be damned, they do have autohits to kingdom come and those weapons don't care about what happened, it didn't impact them.

If anything, I'd just suck it up and start suggesting autohits for daggers, guns, bows and spears, since autohits are so 'fair and balanced', right?

[Yashatari]

http://prntscr.com/gb26ak
Basic Attacks, Various buffs
Lvl 50 Arena Singles.

first damage is 25% abs death and fear, with the + power from bk.
Weapon has a base of 32, two handed.

2nd attack was a crit

3rd attack was increased via blood hands.
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http://prntscr.com/gb27op

First attack is duelist counter. which applied blood hands.

2nd attack was Power Gradation.

3rd to 5th was Crystal rose spam.
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Before the fix, I would do like 400-600 even against lvl 60 enemies. I can really feel the impact, But as you can see, My basic attacks can still be as good as they were, still doing far more than my auto hits. My crits are still fairly common too, on most cases i have around a 60-70%. My build is designed around basic attacks and critting, So i think i'm one of the ones heavily affected, However...

I personally like this impact, pvp duels will last longer, Bosses will be more challenging, You might have to actually start partying instead of soloing that lvl 70 bdp. I feel this is a step in the right direction.

As a potential fix to the guns, Maybe give them a +10 damage boost that applies after all other defense calculations.