[Chaos]

Better just make another thread, telling about how guns, spears, daggers and bows suffered a major hit by this and need a review on their damage, and the fact they don't have a lot of autohits to be used as an excuse to not receive changes.

Fists, swords and axes be damned, they do have autohits to kingdom come and those weapons don't care about what happened, it didn't impact them.

If anything, I'd just suck it up and start suggesting autohits for daggers, guns, bows and spears, since autohits are so 'fair and balanced', right?

Salty conjecture doesn't help anyone nor the topic.


That aside, I think most people are blowing autohits and basic attacks out of proportion. Autohits are reliable, largely static damage. Basic Attacks are inconsistent, but have a far higher damage roof than autohits ever will. (Spells fall in their own category, and face several obstacles) I don't see why autohits have to be weaker than basic attacks; that just completely invalidates them, since basic attacks will not only be stronger at worst, but ridiculously stronger at best. That's not the kind of balance we need to strike, hurt feelings or no.

If you want to really 'fix' basic attacks, focus on the effects that come with it, such as additional damage and Excel weapons.

If you want to 'nerf' autohits, honestly, go after their most explosive elements (see: lightning augment) or start slapping cooldowns on most (if not all) of them. I guarantee that Crystal Rose won't look 'strictly better' than a basic attack when you can only use it once every 2~3 rounds.

[Sawrock]

Basic attacks used to have a higher damage roof, but then this bugfix made them worse, to the point where autohits are just flat-out better. That's what the thread is about.

[Rendar]

Basic attacks used to have a higher roof, Chaos.

At base, they do 100% SWA. On a crit, they did anywhere between 115% - 210% (the higher one being a VA with really high GUI)

Auto hits do, usually at max rank, above 100% SWA. They do AoE, and have additional effects. Retreating swipe is.. about 120%? 130%? I don't remember off the top of my head. But let's just say that their 'baseline' is 120%.

Some autohits get elemental attack (Crystal rose / Spells / Verglas ice shit). Most of them, still, contain an AoE effect though.

Basic attacks, to do that 115-210% SWA damage, require two things.

A) A hit check. For the most part, this is easy! Against someone who's had time to buff, this can go from 0% - 25% hit rate real quick, but let's ignore that.
B) A critical hit check! Again, mostly 'easy', bar cases where people have built FAI or LUC, or are a BK wearing bleached fang. In which case, crit rate can go from 0% - 25% really fucking fast. (I've been on the receiving end of both of these effects with my dodger recently).

Auto hits, to do their 110%+ SWA in an AoE needs neither of these things.

They are static. They will always do this damage. Things that increase said damage (Marked for Death, Hunted, charge + skill) will increase it always at a flat rate. There will be no variation (for the most part). These skills aren't stopped by dodge, stalemate, Eviter (unless you're doing it RIGHT in someones face).

Basic attacks are stopped by dodge/stalemate (and sometimes eviter).

tl;dr no Chaos. Basic attacks are not really in an okay spot, when you compare them to Auto Hits.

[Lolzytripd]

Derg, Its 105% crit mod for fists without guile, fists have the worlds worst crit modifier still.

[Neus]

All you really did was regurgitate what Chaos said. Criticals will always beat autohits unless you have 0 GUI investment (in which case why are you normal attacking in the first place?)

[Grandpa]

Certain autohits get up to 150%+ damage. Why should I have to invest 40 points into a stat that isn't even guaranteed damage when I can just use an autohit that is and get that damage or even more? FP and skill slots aren't even close to an issue for those that dedicate themselves to it. A person that wants to hit, crit and deal damage with that crit need 3 different stats. An autohit character needs one, maybe two depending on which autohit we're talking about here, to deal damage. That's not fair at all to basic attackers. That's my stance on this.

[Autumn]

I don't see much issue in the formula from before, where power added into the basic attack formula, as that made basic attacks even without critically hitting just as worthwhile as autohitting, I know I have 2 black knight characters who didn't care about critically hitting, but they (as characters) preferred honor, so they were basic attacking anyways.

More so:

-the majority of the playerbase thought the power bonus was more than fine, I was under the impression it was intended.

-The change only encouraged more tank meta, basic attackers could likely have a chance to punch through before this update, a lot of tank vs dodge setups were balanced almost. (And tanks could fight against basic attackers with lucky amulet + padded vest cloak, and CRIT EVADE, but they'd suffer against magic users this way)

-Multi hit guns are absolutely trashed, as well as single shots in some instances

-Basic attacking without a critical check is not remotely worth, before it was, this'll cut down diversity in builds.

-More autohit centric builds just means less dodge builds which means less character diversity

If even after all of these points, you still don't change your stance on the matter, then I'd request the thread be locked, before it goes on too long.

[Neus]

Certain autohits get up to 150%+ damage. Why should I have to invest 40 points into a stat that isn't even guaranteed damage when I can just use an autohit that is and get that damage or even more? FP and skill slots aren't even close to an issue for those that dedicate themselves to it. A person that wants to hit, crit and deal damage with that crit need 3 different stats. An autohit character needs one, maybe two depending on which autohit we're talking about here, to deal damage. That's not fair at all to basic attackers. That's my stance on this.

Certain autohits that require and cure knockdown, or have other limitations (Lance de Lion has a long cooldown and high FP cost. Felhook is a finisher that costs 4M.) Pretty much every other autohit in the game is around 120% SWP.

[Rendar]

Felhook can be used twice in one turn (rather easily) so long as you play the "GUESS WHICH THING IT TAKES TO ACTUALLY BREAK MY GEIST!" (Answer; it's not a skill).

They then get to bumrush you and pummel your asshole in for 140% SWA (+ extra from SS)

Execute is fine, because it has a shitton of limitations that either require certain cheese combos, or for the person to be an archer.

However, shit in the entire monk tree just shits out more damage than you can count. Dense Thunder? 1.3x SWA + half of that in sound damage to everyone within 3 (so, effectively, 205% SWA, more if they are around allies). People will almost always hit this in the current meta because fire tiles fucking murder you if you don't have spiked treads. And having spiked treads auto-counts as you hitting a damn wall, so you take the full damage anyways.

You running Monk + DH (or in a straight line with your enemy)? Dragon Gale (120% SWA + 100% Wind Atk) > Backflip towards them > DRAGON GALE.

Now they've taken 120% SWA + 100% Wind attack and then 130% SWA (*1.15) and are now knocked down.

The Dragon Gale will do even more damage if there were people in the way, and if there were, and you were DH, you can just fly over them towards your foe for practically free.

The topic is done and dead and over with though. Let's pray Glancing Blows will at least make this better.

[Snake]

A few points that I forgot to mention include skills that use FP and do a basic attack, like Sidecut or Geldoren. What about them? They just have minor effects, a FP cost attached to it and STILL DO LESS DAMAGE than your normal auto-hit that comes packed with added effects and a rather small FP cost (which is always +5 compared to non-autohit skills that use hit-check and your weapons.)

The game's versatility is going down the drain each time I log in to play. Void Assassin's adjusts made it an even worse class to combat Magic users, which are brimming, and everything I try building 'must' always resort to autohits or Martial Artists, especially Boxer.

Basic hits are for people who wanna just lose in PvP without having a chance to fight back, or be a COMPLETE DRAG to carry through fights in PvE. Aside the fact leveling as Duelist, Archer or Rogue is now terrible. Any team guy I have who is a Duelist, Archer or Rogue I just grimace, knowing it will take fucking ages for them to kill any mob.

Please do something about this. The change did more harm than fix in the whole game and completely elbowed the game balance between 'basic hits', 'autohits' and 'magic' to hell. Now everything is either 'autohit' or 'magic'.

No nerfs are needed anywhere, and if we're nerfing stuff, this might take a WHILE until everything become weapons made of foam. And I really don't wanna tackle this option. It will delay the game's development. It will delay the planning to the next classes being added. It will certainly not be a fun thing to do. It will delay anything more worth your time than reducing all autohit's numbers in existence to less than 100% Scaled Weapon Attack for the sake of 'balance'.

Dev, please. Reducing the damage of things just makes tanking better and more optimal as people will just carelessly shrug off your hits while dealing back the double or triple damage you did to them and this is infuriating, in a BYOND game that's supposed to be fun and casual.