[Lolzytripd]

Perhaps fallcall/hunted/ect style buffs should add together to one Multiplier while crit damage is the other multiplier.

Either that or remove Guile from autohit crit damage scalings since theres already so many things that buff that specifically.

[Fern]

I can get behind the formula change too, honestly. However I'm not sure if it's hard to code the change in.

I'm also concerned about the possible changes to critical damage as well, since it's something you do stat for usually.

[Lolzytripd]

Perhaps make the modfier change only apply to autohits first, to test the change, since they seem to be the big ticket offender currently, and after seeing just how much it lowers them, decide if basic attack deserves (Another) nerf.

[Autumn]

I think basic attacks are still potent, though when it comes to stacking multipliers like Absolute death hunted fallcall 1v1 and combination strike/on the ropes, people tend to stack them as much as humanly possible in order to start shitting out damage.

having those be additive is a nice thought but I thought it would be completely seperate from this thread, thus why I would of waited to put it up.

when it comes to critical damage it almost seems like a different matter.

[Neus]

No one thinks the issue here might be Spellthief?

[Snake]

I kind of do too.

Spellthieves are the only ones who can do this, by stealing some nasty 'class exclusive' buffs that otherwise would be more seen as a drawback, and further bamboozle it with their Rogue stuff (the hit buffs, dodge buffs, Evasion with a giant bonus chance to trigger), which is already a very nice class in general for melee gimmicks. And let's not forget Negotiate makes them immune to negative status effects.

I just don't know how to approach this. Maybe make it so Spellthieves can only steal offensive spells?

[Rendar]

Spellthieves are pretty awful in terms of balance.

If they could only steal offense / defense spells ( I think healing is considered defense? Iunno ) they'd be less likely to just do the stupid bullshit that they're already doing. However, I don't think just stopping ST from doing that would really make that much of a change.

Fern's character, since they're just using redgull / DK could realistically just swap to Kensei / Hexer, get 10% extra HP, auto-enchant (to save a turn)... and just go full ham without the winds needed. Of course, SPLASH is a thing, in this very specific case.

Which increases the damage by 15% or so. That isn't the most gigantic damage increase, but i'd readily drop splash to get this, but at a slightly weaker version.

[Snake]

Kensei/Hexer is better than Kensei/Spellthief. He'd not get as much dodge/Evasion chance as he's supposed to. And he won't be able to get a free pass out of Silence/Interference either due to no Negotiate.

It's not in terms of damage, it's in terms of utility, and some of this 'utility' turns around and becomes damage.

As a Spellthief, Joker has (or could have, in some cases) a team-wide percentage heal (Malmelo)
a lightning augment buff that can be used on the team and themselves (Redgull)
a lightning damage amplifier for 1M, that makes Mechanations automatically weak to Lightning (Splash)
all of Rogue's evasion/hit benefits from the winds
more evasion for several rounds (Distortion)
guess what? more evasion (Fortune Wind)
a way to fucktouple their hit once again and on top of their already 60 scaled SKI/LUC (Invisible Weapon)
a way to blind a single enemy (Pocket Sand)
a way to do an extra 150% damage to feared enemies, and gain +10 to all stats on top of it (Death Knighting)
two to three ways to recover FP (Energy Laundering/Blue Steal/Kensei's passive FP regen)
a way to make a single enemy fuck their own team up if they use big AoEs (Confusion)
a way to remove two/three negative status effects [INCLUDING THE IMPORTANT SILENCE] for just hitting the enemy with Bloody Palms (Negotiate)
and interference itself (Ryemei/Quetal/Black Spark)

Conduiz also helps the part the magical hits will always use your SWA for the lightning spells.

Hexer doesn't offer as much options like Spellthief, if any at all. A Hexer's also always stopped by a silence most of the time, and null shell. AND the most importantly, Hexer can be hit if you build to hit, unlike Spellthieves who can just chain-cast Distortion + Southern Wind + Eastern Wind + Fortune Wind.

PS: The biggest issue is in bold, imo.

[Fern]

Honestly, she'd be much better if she was Kensei/Hexer yeah, specially if I decide to Conduiz my weapon and run Plisfa's Masochism to guarantee three hits, rather than waste time buffing my hit. I generally don't have to Negotiate silence, as the most common silences right now are 2 duration and I wear a Heron Feather. I also use one because otherwise, I get silence locked if I'm slower.

But Kensei/Hexer feels pretty weird on that particular character. The only real problem I see with Spellthief is that they usually grab Malmelo with no requirement whatsoever- and that's because it goes off max HP only.

If I ran Kensei/Hexer, the damage fest would actually be more prominent- specially since I can force people to hit me for Bloody Karma's +25 crit bonus. Don't have to use Northern Wind anymore... they -have- to hit me and transfer the curses, since I usually pack higher CEL.

Do keep in mind Hexers don't need Rogue winds to dodge when they just turn on Fellel's Fumble. I don't really need Fleur to spam Swift Crystal Rose, assuming I'm going for the most imbalanced route disregarding character traits.

Funny enough, I didn't grab Distortion since there's people that are unable to miss me no matter what I do. That and not enough SP.

[Rendar]

Spellthief's issues are tied, directly, to being able to steal spells that require no stats whatsoever. (Malmelo, Death Knighting, Sanctuary, etc...)

Hexer makes this build fucktupled worse because you can give yourself a ton of +CRIT from a passive. As well as give people interference rather readily.

Black bubble negates crit evade if they stand in it (making it easier to crit them with the lightning crystal rose), the passives that restore FP on a basic attack hit.. etc.. etc... etc.

All around, Hexer just makes this build scarier because there is no wind up prep time. They just fuck you in the ass after death knighting is started. Of course, this does half-revolve around the fact that the person has to Death Knighting, which is increasingly frustrating to deal with and has been a major source of balance issues in the past. +10 (or +12 in this case) to all stats for a large number of turns + fallcall for 1.5x extra damage on fear is kind of obscene. It's obvious that it isn't really a skill that is meant to be used with a mage class (since practically none of the magic classes give fear as an affliction and that falls, mostly, to basic attackers).