[EenKogNeeto]

Kensei. The problem child that everyone has a pretty heated opinion about for various reasons.
I'm going to be that guy who gives their ideas for how to fix it here.

We're going to start with the active skills and work our way across.

Or should I say the one active skill that sees any use: Wazabane. A skill that is just a basic attack but better. 15 Hit, 15 Crit. If you're airborne then it doubles to 30/30. Honestly? I think it's fine for balance but for one thing. I think it should require Sacred Art to be active to use. Meaning you need to actually use another Kensei skill first instead of just burning up.

The other assorted Kensei active skills are fairly solid at a universal 140% SWA and hefty but manageable FP costs when factoring in the class mechanic that is Sacred Art. All I would suggest adding to make them more appealing is...Buff sacred art's damage to be 10-20% of your SWA rather than 10%(?) of your Elemental Atk. All it does currently is occasionally make you lose momentum due to resist for negligible 1-4 water damage on hit.

Moving on across the list we get to Sheath Sword. Which is...Perfectly fine honestly, it's a source of your class mechanic and generally has some cool fluff and mechanical uses. Buffing Sacred Art or putting more focus on it will encourage people to use it more instead of always dumping it to the side.

Next we get to the Absolute Three. And honestly? Absolute Death and Absolute Pace are both fairly balanced in my opinion. They are impactful without being a super 'I win' button to push. The real problem child and the number one complaint most people have with Kensei is Absolute Fear. The no roll 'I win' button against other melee, mages, anyone really. It's oppressive as hell to get three big debuffs slapped on you at the push of a button no matter what your resistances are. But it doesn't need a massive rework or anything: It just needs to be inflict based. Most Kensei will have skill so they will still be able to pull it off on people who have no resistance. But it will be as a *result* of them not building status resistance. It gives counterplay in the form of preparation like a paper doll as an option for mages and other melees.

Passives...The balanced ones.
Blade Barrier seems oppressive at first but once you realize you can flank them to negate it you can usually work around it.
Sacred Art is what the class SHOULD be using, yet its so rarely taken right now sadly.
The remaining ones are either balanced or not worth mentioning.

And now we get to the crux of the issue that is Kensei Meta. The innate passives that work with every build and you would be foolish not to take.

First off we have the big three: Sakki, Touki, and Kenki. -15 To hit, -15 to Evade, -15 to crit evade. Each getting buffed by one of the earlier mentioned Absolutes for -30 to the respective stat. No matter what against a Kensei you have 15 less evade, hit and crit evade just baseline. A huge deal.

Then we have the stealthiest part of why Kensei is so oppressive to play against. The one nobody really notices. Yomidori. This is the real strongest part of Kensei Evasion builds. This is what deletes your hopes and dreams. After you deal ANY damage to the Kensei you get -30 to your Hit for the rest of the round. Potentially stacked on top of the -60 from fear. A grand total of a 90 reduction to your hit entirely from passive effects. This is why you need over 350% hit chance to reliably hit Kensei. This is the biggest thing that needs tweaking with the class.

Now all of this is explaining the problem, not suggesting a way to fix it yeah? Well. I think it's pretty easy: Make it so they only apply while Sacred Art is active. Encourage the use of a Kensei Skill like Kagekiri or ending your turn with sheath sword, so that on your next attack/turn you'll have all these wonderful debuffs. No more will you be able to take Kensei as a Ranger/DH/MG/etc and just enjoy all the benefits despite not actually using a sword at all.

TLDR: Make sacred art the focus of the class, rather than universal passives. Hopefully leading to people actually using things like Kagekiri, Sheath sword, Sharenzan, and so on. As a side effect, it will tie everything to using a blade. No more Kensei Gunners without at least packing a sword in their offhand.

[Autumn]

Kensei. The problem child that everyone has a pretty heated opinion about for various reasons.
I'm going to be that guy who gives their ideas for how to fix it here.

We're going to start with the active skills and work our way across.

Or should I say the one active skill that sees any use: Wazabane. A skill that is just a basic attack but better. 15 Hit, 15 Crit. If you're airborne then it doubles to 30/30. Honestly? I think it's fine for balance but for one thing. I think it should require Sacred Art to be active to use. Meaning you need to actually use another Kensei skill first instead of just burning up.

See I don't think Wazabane is actually much of a problem, sure its 15 hit and crit but the FP cost is insane on it for that bonus, 22 FP for a basic attack like that is usually not worth it, if anything Wazabane is in need of a buff to its FP Cost.

The other assorted Kensei active skills are fairly solid at a universal 140% SWA and hefty but manageable FP costs when factoring in the class mechanic that is Sacred Art. All I would suggest adding to make them more appealing is...Buff sacred art's damage to be 10-20% of your SWA rather than 10%(?) of your Elemental Atk. All it does currently is occasionally make you lose momentum due to resist for negligible 1-4 water damage on hit.

I agree here, sacred art's never really been appealing for the damage itself, not only that but the elemental damage effect is actually resisted by armor somehow, making it nigh useless.

Next we get to the Absolute Three. And honestly? Absolute Death and Absolute Pace are both fairly balanced in my opinion. They are impactful without being a super 'I win' button to push. The real problem child and the number one complaint most people have with Kensei is Absolute Fear. The no roll 'I win' button against other melee, mages, anyone really. It's oppressive as hell to get three big debuffs slapped on you at the push of a button no matter what your resistances are. But it doesn't need a massive rework or anything: It just needs to be inflict based. Most Kensei will have skill so they will still be able to pull it off on people who have no resistance. But it will be as a *result* of them not building status resistance. It gives counterplay in the form of preparation like a paper doll as an option for mages and other melees.

I feel as though with its cooldown, absolute fear has a decent amount of counterplay, including just being out of range of it, on top of other duelist counters currently present like sporting crit evade or slash/pierce resist, there should be a lot of threat present when a duelist is sitting in your face, thats sort of what mages have to plan for and prevent, instead of sitting there twiddling their thumbs like the hexer standard.

And now we get to the crux of the issue that is Kensei Meta. The innate passives that work with every build and you would be foolish not to take.

First off we have the big three: Sakki, Touki, and Kenki. -15 To hit, -15 to Evade, -15 to crit evade. Each getting buffed by one of the earlier mentioned Absolutes for -30 to the respective stat. No matter what against a Kensei you have 15 less evade, hit and crit evade just baseline. A huge deal.

Then we have the stealthiest part of why Kensei is so oppressive to play against. The one nobody really notices. Yomidori. This is the real strongest part of Kensei Evasion builds. This is what deletes your hopes and dreams. After you deal ANY damage to the Kensei you get -30 to your Hit for the rest of the round. Potentially stacked on top of the -60 from fear. A grand total of a 90 reduction to your hit entirely from passive effects. This is why you need over 350% hit chance to reliably hit Kensei. This is the biggest thing that needs tweaking with the class.

When it comes to evade the only class in the game to be able to reliably run it right now -IS- Kensei, and thats simutaniously both a good and bad thing, its bad because evade can be unreliable, its good because that gives not too many classes checks to hit stacking, except Kensei, where it has a slightly higher than normal chance to avoid a basic attack, and only on certain conditions which are preventable. (IE: Having fear immunity/cures, and your first hit can be followed by autohits instead too if the hit penalty is too much.)

Now all of this is explaining the problem, not suggesting a way to fix it yeah? Well. I think it's pretty easy: Make it so they only apply while Sacred Art is active. Encourage the use of a Kensei Skill like Kagekiri or ending your turn with sheath sword, so that on your next attack/turn you'll have all these wonderful debuffs. No more will you be able to take Kensei as a Ranger/DH/MG/etc and just enjoy all the benefits despite not actually using a sword at all.

I can't actually agree with this because it erases class synergy which is super important for duelist to actually have builds outside of SWARD builds, why can't I be a gunner who excels in 1v1s, or critical hit checks like a deadeye? not to name other builds.

I'd like to hear Dev's idea on Kensei mechanics like its specific type of ki, but when it comes to kensei passives currently I believe they're actually fine where they are somehow, kensei still runs into average duelist counters, and the only reason its picked over ghost is because of the diversity its passives cover, unlike fitting form and ghost's lack of actual dodge.

[EenKogNeeto]

See I don't think Wazabane is actually much of a problem, sure its 15 hit and crit but the FP cost is insane on it for that bonus, 22 FP for a basic attack like that is usually not worth it, if anything Wazabane is in need of a buff to its FP Cost.

A class having all the solutions to its own problems inbuilt isn't good for balance. There's a reason Kensei works SO WELL. Even if someone has crit evade after you strip 30 of it with passives, you then also have Wazabane to effectively lower it by another 15. Not to mention it's used in countering evade in case god forbid, lowering their evade by up to 30 wasn't enough already.

I agree here, sacred art's never really been appealing for the damage itself, not only that but the elemental damage effect is actually resisted by armor somehow, making it nigh useless.

I considered suggesting it be made immune to armors/resists/etc but I felt like that wouldn't really fit in the purview of this particular post.

I feel as though with its cooldown, absolute fear has a decent amount of counterplay, including just being out of range of it, on top of other duelist counters currently present like sporting crit evade or slash/pierce resist, there should be a lot of threat present when a duelist is sitting in your face, thats sort of what mages have to plan for and prevent, instead of sitting there twiddling their thumbs like the hexer standard.

There is no counterplay. You get silenced. End. The most common opener in any PVP battle in the arena is 'Walk up and Absolute Fear' because it's that good. Hesitation and Fear decimate melee's ability to hit you and the silence requires at bare minimum a sacrifice of 10% maxhp to counter. It forces EVERY mage to bring a screamer or some similar counter to silence.

Sporting crit evade...Like that thing you can negate up to 60 of. Which completely negates an entire stats worth of Crit Evade (Equivalent to 60+ luck).

Planning for and preventing someone walking within three tiles of you and dropping a unresistable silence on you is a bit of a tall order don't you think? How would you suggest a non-wind mage counter this opening gambit with status resistance doing nothing to it?

When it comes to evade the only class in the game to be able to reliably run it right now -IS- Kensei, and thats simutaniously both a good and bad thing, its bad because evade can be unreliable, its good because that gives not too many classes checks to hit stacking, except Kensei, where it has a slightly higher than normal chance to avoid a basic attack, and only on certain conditions which are preventable. (IE: Having fear immunity/cures, and your first hit can be followed by autohits instead too if the hit penalty is too much.)

Actually, Evade is almost solely tied to Cobra dodging, Kensei has never been the main focus of evade builds. Now VA/ST Cobra builds do it best, the issue is that Kensei gets so much of it for free with no investment or buffing strictly required. A build with only 200 Evade can easily negate 300 hit with Kensei passives while most Cobra builds aim for 250+ to do the same. Fear immunity is rare, cures cost momentum for something they can just re-apply, and Autohits will still get evaded for 30% less damage and, though I didn't mention it here because this is about Kensei, not Duelist, Flottement stacks.

I can't actually agree with this because it erases class synergy which is super important for duelist to actually have builds outside of SWARD builds, why can't I be a gunner who excels in 1v1s, or critical hit checks like a deadeye? not to name other builds.

Kensei isn't about Class Synergy. There's a reason why its ONLY class weapon is the sword. You are going on the path of the blade. Commit or look elsewhere. If you want to synergize it...Guess what? You can offhand a blade just fine. You can, in fact, do everything in Kensei while using an offhand sword and a main-hand gun or even a bow like a real Samurai.

[Autumn]

A class having all the solutions to its own problems inbuilt isn't good for balance. There's a reason Kensei works SO WELL. Even if someone has crit evade after you strip 30 of it with passives, you then also have Wazabane to effectively lower it by another 15. Not to mention it's used in countering evade in case god forbid, lowering their evade by up to 30 wasn't enough already.

I already mentioned as to why Wazabane is balanced and thats by its FP Cost alone, more often than not it'll chunk through 15-20% of any duelist's FP pool, not counting the FP Regen they can get, not only that but its SP cost is pretty substantial, you have to sacrifice something to get it, I don't need to mention anything else here since I'd be repeating the same thing.

There is no counterplay. You get silenced. End. The most common opener in any PVP battle in the arena is 'Walk up and Absolute Fear' because it's that good. Hesitation and Fear decimate melee's ability to hit you and the silence requires at bare minimum a sacrifice of 10% maxhp to counter. It forces EVERY mage to bring a screamer or some similar counter to silence.

Sporting crit evade...Like that thing you can negate up to 60 of. Which completely negates an entire stats worth of Crit Evade (Equivalent to 60+ luck).

Planning for and preventing someone walking within three tiles of you and dropping a unresistable silence on you is a bit of a tall order don't you think? How would you suggest a non-wind mage counter this opening gambit with status resistance doing nothing to it?

That is not at all the most common opener for any pvp battle because that just gets you killed super easily, I can assure you any kensei just walking up and touching absolute fear is just going to get demolished by anyone with a brain, because you've approached the enemy, therefore they do not need to approach you, and you've exhausted an important cooldown in the face of someone who could simply be an autohit build or be packing one of the MANY silence counters already prevalent in this game, including a new skill very recently that would absolutely destroy anyone performing this strategy on a would be mage, lets move onto an actually good point.

Crit evade being at 60 is not really enough, the typical amount you'd be aiming for to stop duelist shenanigans is around 85-100 normally, and anything beyond that is icing on the cake, the value of boneheart over giant gene is staggering when facing a duelist, as if you can even prevent 1 critical hit check you've already received more effective HP from that enchant.

No I don't think its a bit of a tall order, mages should absolutely be prepared for silence in some way, whether that's sporting one of the MANY MANY MANY ways to counter it, which would include:
-Whispering Can't
-Silent Prayer
-Screamer Tome
-Cleanse Potion
-Throat Opener
-Heron Feather
-Glykin's FAI passive
-Simply just being faster than your opponent initiative wise. (Better if you have a heron feather, as this would COMPLETELY remove abs fear's silence.)

I can suggest a non wind mage invest into a heron feather and possibly Silent Prayer or Whispering Can't or Negotiate, as all 3 of these would help against silence severely, remember it has a 3 round cooldown but a 2 round silence, meaning it can never permanently silence you unless the kensei is faster than you and you're not sporting any form of fighting silence, which is what most casters should be sporting.

A heron feather brings that 2 round silence down to a measly 1, this means that you're stuck doing no magic for 1 round (you can use this to prep curses or charge mind, or better yet you can just use whispering can't to cast.)

What I'm trying to say is, even if you don't have any of the listed silence counters, you can spare 1 accessory for heron feather just to have a much easier time against these threats, or hell pack a throatopener I guess.

And as for fear immunity/removal that much is easy, you have several skills that cure it, one that gives an immunity after curing it, red cape, being a shaitan, cleanse potions again, liquid courage etc.

Actually, Evade is almost solely tied to Cobra dodging, Kensei has never been the main focus of evade builds. Now VA/ST Cobra builds do it best, the issue is that Kensei gets so much of it for free with no investment or buffing strictly required. A build with only 200 Evade can easily negate 300 hit with Kensei passives while most Cobra builds aim for 250+ to do the same. Fear immunity is rare, cures cost momentum for something they can just re-apply, and Autohits will still get evaded for 30% less damage and, though I didn't mention it here because this is about Kensei, not Duelist, Flottement stacks.

What even is this kind of assessment? Evade being used for Cobra dodging is a thing sure but you have to hardline invest into it to get the most out of it, I don't even know what you're talking about when you say 'actually evade is tied to cobra dodging', No? For as long as the game's been around its existed as an alternate form of defense, originally versus basic attacks which was all physical damage was back a long time ago, now it serves as a huge damage mitigation tool against autohits, both physical and magical, which makes it widely diversified in what it can do, hit builds however see that they can usually end up hitting through evade builds.

Veering back on topic, yes a Kensei can reduce someone's hit by up to 70, which is super substantial, but that doesn't mean all hit builds are fucked regardless, I'd like to share a screenshot here, of a hit focused build rather than crit focused, with bloodhunt or blessed you can reach absurd amounts of hit, to the point where even a Kensei sporting well up to 300 evade can't even stop you.



So so what if a Kensei can stop -some- people from hitting? Is there not allowed a class that can do that?

Kensei isn't about Class Synergy. There's a reason why its ONLY class weapon is the sword. You are going on the path of the blade. Commit or look elsewhere. If you want to synergize it...Guess what? You can offhand a blade just fine. You can, in fact, do everything in Kensei while using an offhand sword and a main-hand gun or even a bow like a real Samurai.

I don't think you quite understand the point of the multi class system to start with, we are not limited to one prospect as that'd completely fuck with the dynamic of character creation, and taking away tools that allow creativity in build crafting (which I don't perceive to be at all broken) is just not a good thing for the future of the class, you -CAN- pursue the path of a classic Kensei, you -CAN- go Katana and wave it around like a dork, you -CAN- pair it up with a bow to allow yourself to be more similar to the classic warrior.

But you can also pair it up with any other weapon and be creative about it, its an RP game after all.

[Lolzytripd]

I agree with snoop, also not all kensei builds even touch the sword parts like he said, there are guntana, bowtana, and fistana builds that do quite well.

[PantherPrincess]

So, I'll just keep it short in which I say the same thing to everyone who gets iffy about this class. It is not that Kensei is so broken that it's the best class out there, it's that it is finished and well done and covers a lot of ground with it's utility. The problem lies in that other classes (excluding Hexer, VA, GS and certain others) have trouble keeping up with the rest. I'm sure once Dev finishes tweaking and adding more things to the classes that need it, everything will be fine. A good example of a class that needs adjusting in order to keep up with Kensei and other classes is Engineer, not to derail the argument. As it stands frankly you can counter Kensei in many ways as Spo mentioned above. Kensei doesn't need any more touching than it already has received.