[Senna]

So turn order at the moment is pretty bad. If you're a player that uses mobs, such as Summoners, Engineer, and even Tact, you're setting yourself up for failure if you don't have little to no initiative. If you do, you'll only get yourself double turned the next round.

This happens so often it isn't funny...

Even in a team fight, I've seen/experienced people double turn others without the effort or intention since the game does that for the players. The turn order just gives it to them because the enemy lost member or you or your ally summoned/Employ an extra mob on the battlefield which changes turn order.

The only way to escape this is to build no Initiative at all.

While I would say just revert the turn system, how about we just address some of the problems and see how far it can get us. It does have potential, just one too many bugs and ways to completely screw people over.

PVE and PVP are equally as rough with the turn system.

So suggestion to fix this? This sounds like a massive rework but...

Instead of having the turn order base on teams and how many members are on the team, how about we borrow from the previous turn order and let it use Initiative to decide the order?

This means the faster they are, the higher their placement is on the team.

Example of this

Team B has 2 4 6 8 and Team A has 1 3 5 7 layouts in both teams from who's the fastest to who's the slowest.

1 is fastest on both teams and 2 close behind.

So the order would be.
1 - A
2 - B
3 - A
4 - B
5 - A
6 - B
7 - A
8 - B

It keeps this order throughout the battle. So even if the fastest is KOed then 2 will go first instead to avoid the two turn situation.

2 B
3 A
4 B
5 A
6 B
7 A
8 B


If someone else dies... Let's say 5 got KOed. The other order would look like this instead

2 B
3 A
4 B
6 B
7 A
8 B

This also means when new mobs are set, they will instead be put last on the list. This time let's say B team a few engineer robots on the field.

2 B
3 A
4 B
6 B
7 A
8 B
9 Bots1
10 Bots 2

The only time the order will change completely if another mob joins the battle. This means base on their speed will decide their placement. Let's say team A got two more members, 11 and 12. 11 is now faster than all of them and 12 is faster than 7. The turn order adjustment would be...

11 A
2 B
3 A
4 B
12 A
6 B
7 A
8 B
9 Bot1
10 Bot2

This would make orders suddenly two turning others not as easy and present as it is currently.
With this comes a new Skip. How would skipping work in this situation? Somewhat different. I'd say we'll go back to Skip's old roots. It does the same thing the previous skip did BUT this time, immunity, certain effects, and so on does not cease on End Turn but instead, on the start of a new round. Since the counter for this was a lot more simple than punishing. Counter skip or prepare yourself to try and deny their chance and getting a purpose two turn (Since you can see it coming). ONLY the immunity/effects were the problem with this. (And we've been trying to say this for months)

[Autumn]

If you just remove the stipulation that if Purple/blue goes last then Blue/purple must go first on the next round then you'll remove a lot of the issues people have with the system up until people start getting killed. Since the turn order would remain static pretty much even if summons are brought into the equation up until people start dying, which is a lot easier to predict/control.

It might also help if summons were just completely removed from the player's turn order entirely. As it seems like most of the problems that are had with the system are with summons seizing away your own team's initiative, if you have a summoner on your team and your opponents don't, you may as well be a full team of tanks given you'll never have the opportunity for that most important first slot anyways.

What I mean by that is just having summons play out and resolve their turns separately from the player turn order, a sort of mini-round that occurs at the end of the round.

[Senna]

Fair enough. I mention it because even in a 2v2, it's pretty present. 3v4 and 2v4. As I said, I've witness people 2 turns a team because their comrade died the previous turn.

GOD BLESS YOUR SOUL IF THEY USE MOBS.

I've run a 2v2 test with three Int build and one tank. The tank survived and I let it's Int build partner died. That's pretty much where the tank was able to get a double turn from it since the turn order now puts it first. The suggestion is to remove the Purple/Blue purple starting next round since it affects people with mobs such as summons, uneven teams, and so on.

I'm aware Dev is trying to prevent the two turn situation but this is only creating a lot more of them.

But yes Spo, I do agree with you there, to remove summons/Bots/Dark eyes/Shades from the player's turn order and move them to a bracket of their own.

[Aqua]

Personally, I think putting bots and Dark eyes in the same catergory as Youkai would work here (Shades don't really have a turn order anyway iirc) but alternatively what Spo has suggested also works too.

[SolAndLuna]

Agreed with Spo, honestly. While it does indirectly work as a sort of "comeback" mechanic, letting someone effectively move twice makes it pretty difficult to avoid taking an excessive amount of damage if the person knows that it's about to happen. On top of that, youkai, bots, butterflies, etc. affecting the turn order makes it actually unreasonable to summon anything that gets a turn, unless you were already last in the turn order to begin with. I can think of several instances where actually unequipping Auto-Summon would have significantly improved my chances at winning simply because it meant that I would have had a chance to act before they attack 5 times or finish an invocation.

[WaifuApple]

Considering I'm much more for ironing out the kinks of a system that will otherwise potentially be really beneficial for the game if it can get to a point where it satisfies everyone, I'm gonna have to agree with Spo. It seems that the main point of trouble is around summons, and getting them in a good state on the turn order would massively improve the system.

[Kameron8]

I suggested a very similar revision to the initiative system, for the same reasons you mentioned, in this thread.  It had some feedback from Dev, so there may be insights there that are useful here.

I still believe the initiative shifts in this system that result in things like a certain enemy abruptly getting to take two turns on you are more frustrating than the 'doom squads all using the same initiative to kill someone before they get a turn' issue the system aimed to fix in the first place.  This, of course, is mostly due to the fact that the random shifts of our new system are far, far more frequent than the dedicated squad of 4 just out for blood.

Once initiative has been determined, I would prefer for it to remain predictable for the entire fight -- not for it to be a volatile shift depending on who dies and who summons help. Though it's a personal preference, I would much prefer to be stuck with the entire enemy team going before me, than to be fairly uncertain about how the turn order is going to look the following round, every round.

[Senna]

As time goes on, you learn there are even more ways to cause the two turn situation to happen. It's not a now and then thing, it happens too consistently. As far as it goes, it does make pvping less fun. Abilities that let you go after, like Duelist Counter, Boxer, and so on, can completely change the turn order and also trigger a two-turn situation. All it takes is for the enemy to use up all their momentum, leaving themselves with 3 (or less) before triggering these effects. After witnessing and also running a few other tests, I can safely say, the switch sides base on who goes last in this turn order NEEDS to go.

It's causing more harm than good.

I don't know if anyone would like to get themselves attacked twice before they could do anything. Especially people that took a risk and wasn't expecting their target to go before them again, or even forced into it.

I'm with Kameron8 on this one. While what I suggested is pretty much letting the turn order remain in stone (unchanged no matter who goes last like the previous) once the Initiative is set until someone else joins--Similar to what the last turn order was, I also believe we should take a page out of Spo's suggestion. That is to move mobs, summons, and so on to their own turn order to avoid conflicting with the current. (Or just move them all last)

Those suggestions may solve many of the problems with the turn order at the moment.

[Autumn]

I'm gonna just flat out state what I think needs to happen that'll help a lot of the issues players currently have with the new turn system, the problem people are having currently is that getting individually double turned by the enemy team because something really small happens like your teammate skip, or your teammate kills someone on the enemy team, or revives start being put out is really really frustrating to experience.

There are a lot of ways to tackle the situation, but I think my preferred option for youkai currently is to have them move directly after the summoner, they all sort of move in 1 block at the end of the turn order right now anyways so it literally changes nothing. Furthermore it only makes bonder gameplay less of a hassle since now you don't get double turned for being faster than your opponent, which is a HUGE gripe I have with the system, I should not be punished for summoning my youkai.

Furthermore, what Kameron suggested earlier where you remain at a static position in the turn order, to prevent dying from turning the tables too hard is not a bad idea either.

If it could be implemented that all summons, robots and youkai, dark eyes etc. to move immediately after their summoner, you'll never run into the problem where your team has too many members so turn order changes and you'll be double turned, and gives more value to actually having initiative as a summoner which has historically been very poor.

[Snake]

I agree with turn order being more static. Random shifts in it are what cause double turning nowadays, and that's just as bad as it was before CEL could be modified up and down.