[Mr.SmileGod]

In line with a Boxer change from a little ways back, I thought to myself, "Huh. I wonder what other classes eat SP for breakfast and leave you struggling to get half of the class's benefits?"

The first one that stuck out to me was Hexer, but I wanted to check for other examples. I'll be listing some (not all) of them here, from the classes I have unlocked.

Looking at a base of 35 spendable points, 50(?) with destiny. Some of the classes on the list are also for a reference, not for my desire to see them lowered as well. More-so wanting some of this to be leveled out a bit, I guess? These are all rough numbers, I may have miscounted, who knows.

Hexer - 122 SP
Demon Hunter - 101 SP
Evoker - 87 SP
Magic Gunner- 85 SP
Lantern Bearer - 85 SP
Ghost - 84 SP
Bonder - 83 SP
Kensei - 81 SP
Black Knight - 79 SP
Monk - 74 SP
Grand Summoner - 69 SP
Boxer - 68 SP (Post-reduction)
Arbalest - 66 SP
Firebird - 66 SP
Verglas - 50 SP
Rune Mage - 37 SP

--Base classes--

Mage - 111 SP
Duelist - 91 SP
Archer - 89 SP
Curate - 85 SP
Soldier - 79 SP
Martial Artist - 68 SP
Rogue - 61 SP
Summoner - 51 SP

---

Notably, I don't have on this list any Rogue promotions, Shape Shifter, Tactician, Priest, or Ranger. If anyone wants to provide the SP counts of those in their post, that'd be appreciated.

[Sawrock]

This is just personal preference so if I'm outnumbered in this opinion I won't be too peeved but I kinda prefer classes having way more skills than you can spend SP on. Hexer being the prime example- there's so many ways you can build hexer; no two hexers are going to perform the same. You could have a high-crit hexer who stacks statuses for extra damage/crit, you could be an infliction hexer who spreads and locks status effects, you could be a hexer who uses invocations and shields the map over, or a blend of any options available, with many being highly viable.

Another example I'd like to see of this would be Void Assassin with more on-hit dagger skills or skills to support daggerplay without void, so that that kind of mix-and-matching would be possible with them too.

In the end, I feel it creates a more mechanically creative atmosphere where a class just doesn't do X role, but have a theme for a base and can spread out farther for a multitudes of ways to play.

[Mr.SmileGod]

It isn't so much about having a high count of skills-- that's perfectly fine. It's more so having 30 skills, while all of them cost 5 points. I'd like to see the 85+ range get lowered down to be a bit more in-line with the other classes, myself. That, or see other classes get brought up some to match-- But in that line of thought, the base number of points needs to be considered in this, which is why I personally advocate for less SP costs, not necessarily more.

So in short, more skills good, higher SP costs (per skill) bad, in my opinion.

[Senna]

There are only a few classes I would agree on that needs their skill cost check. I don't believe you're meant to have every skill in the class, just the skills you NEED for that build. Example, DH, you have enough points to cover up to two stance. Three if you know what you're doing.

The classes I believe that needs to be looked at.

Monk
Hexer
Martial Artist
Curate
Priest

[MakeshiftWalrus]

Don't forget about Void Assassin. Void Assassin has 103 points spread across 32 skills, and is, in my opinion, the most SP-hungry class when it comes to skills. Hexer has plenty of good spells, and many different ways you can plot in your skill points to still have a remarkable impact in any fight, while VA suffers from an egregious amount of borderline useless to very niché skills should you wander the mage-aspect, and an all too strict line should you veer towards the physical basic-attacker.

In both cases, you're unlikely to afford everything you want, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it wasn't for the fact that most of these skills are meant to work with each other, and combo off each other, which you just won't really be able to do unless you want to introduce economics into your skill budget, and leave many of your skills at rank 1, which I think is counter-intuitive to how building a character should work.

[Lonestar]

I think Tactician and Demon Hunter are the two classes that bothers me the most when it comes to classes that eat SP. Of course, you won't get everything you want and that's intentional on how Dev made the game work, but some classes are simply too toxic for that aspect and it could have some skills/passives turned down for the sheer amount they have.

Tactician has wooping 117 points in skills where literally ALL of the active skills are 5 points to max it out. It's insane.

[Autumn]

I don't think Monk or Priest need looking at much, most of the hard decisions within both of those classes boils down to the same thing Hexer has where it displays more of a choice than any requirement, which is important to remember when reducing class SP. (Destiny also massively improves that choice)

Void Assassin and Demon Hunter however have many skill point issues, and demon hunter has skill slot issues.

[Maksimum_Fire]

I really think specific skills need to get called out here that have excessive SP costs.

Blanket pointing at a class and saying "this takes too many points to max" just isn't correct. Not all skills need to be maxed. I think a good way to pick up on this is looking at specific skills in VA, Tactician, and Demon Hunter that seem like they take too many skill points, and addressing the issues with them specifically.

Like Descending Ouroboros. A cool skill, but cobra is already relatively high investment if you're running it. That FP sustain frequently won't be worth what you're sacrificing for it.

[Perdition]

I'm of the opinion that Black Knight's passives really don't need to have 5 points invested in each one of them. Having to choose between highly beneficial passives and actual active skills feels bad. Especially when Black Knight has a plethora of active skills that are actually decent to good but you just don't have the points.

[Mr.SmileGod]

I get what people are saying about there being choices you have to make in how you make your build / choose skills, but I'm personally of the opinion that skills that have a 5 point investment are a bit high. It was the standard back when classes had fewer skills on average, like with examples such as Arbalest. But as time goes on, more classes gain more skills, with only a few exceptions such as Rune Mage.

Again, in line with what happened to Boxer, I feel the standard investment for a skill should be lowered to 3, with 5 remaining for certain skills. Invocations in Hexer would be fine being left at 5, probably. Though maybe lowering others to 3, for example. Boxer I can't exactly read as far as why certain skills got reduced while others didn't, but still.

Like I said, choice is great, but when some classes can be fully obtained without so much as a destiny, while others have enough SP cost to not be able to get half of the skills with a destiny, I feel like certain costs should be shifted a bit. And doing so wouldn't be a huge change for the simple fact that skill slots are still a limiting factor on how much you can cram into your build anyway.