[Aqua]

So I've come to the conclusion that this thread might be worth a shot, it won't be a long post but first I want to make it clear the purpose behind the thread:

- To collect the communities opinion on the guard system.
- Allow the community to suggest things they would rather see in terms of IC punishment for breaking the law.
- Allow the Community to suggest how they would prefer it be handled in general.

I'd prefer if it didn't attract salt or directly target people that play guards. This topic has sparked debates in the public discord and other places before. Everyone's opinion is welcome and hell you can share your experiences if you have experienced Arjav etc.

The minute this derails from the topic at hand, A GM or Dev is free to lock the topic.

[Jupiter_Storm]

I put something about this in Dev's thread but I'll re-iterate here in more clarity.

What they are good for:

• The Imperial Guard (and others) are necessary in order to promote an immersive environment where people cannot simply run rampant and do generally silly things that are at odds with the 'City Setting', such as public urination, street fights, or far less savory activities that shall go unnamed and expect to get away with it.
  
  
• The MAJOR Cities and Towns (read: not all of them) are staple locations in the lore around which certain parts of the established story hinge. As such they require a powerful defense force that can resist any attempts by villains (and protagonist vagabonds) to assert control over them.
  
  
• There is a requirement for an 'official' group of players who are mandated, by the local authorities, to post bounties and quests for the RPG's "Adventuring Parties" (at least, if we were going with a classic high fantasy setting), such that the actions of antagonists (which are an integral part of promoting conflict in a narrative setting) receive public recognition and those who want to engage with their narrative - as part of their own 'Hero(?) Narrative' - can be more well informed. This takes some pressure off Eventmins / GMs / Dev to create content and facilitates more player-created content.
  
  
• The aforementioned antagonists, if dealt with, need somewhere they can be imprisoned - for a time - to allow for a natural 'break' in the story. A calm between storms, as it were. Repeat offenders could of course be executed, and should be, as a natural outcome if they are beaten. Others can be released after a given period of time which allows for continuity of the plot. The Guards facilitate this with Fort Arjav, which is a horrifyingly nightmarish place to live and serves as a suitable narrative hook for allowing villains to emerge bigger and better, when they are released, due to what they invariably experience behind bars.
  

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What they should not be used for, and why:

• This is (to my understanding, unless it was intended to be something else), a High Fantasy Adventure RPG. The 'main characters' of it are the Adventurers - for whom the driving force behind their own stories and motivations is the concept of High Adventure. High Adventure is a state whereby there is always some sort of problem that requires bolder individuals with unique skill-sets to solve, thus providing a narrative hook for characters to continue their natural progression and immerse themselves in, adventures.
  
  
• The prevalence of the Imperial Guard's involvement with cases that extend beyond the borders of the Cities (read: being called out to camps in the wilderness, the forest, or the deserts in the case of foreign Guard Forces) detracts from this state of High Adventure, because their status as an official organization can be waved in the faces of hardened warriors (which adventurers objectively are, given what they do regularly), forcing them to stand down and twiddle their thumbs while Uncle Tom tackles the bad guy.
  
  
• As such, I do not think that the Guards (of anywhere) have any business involving themselves in activity BEYOND the borders of areas that effectively serve as both 'sanctuaries' where you have a pretty solid chance of not getting attacked, and public hubs. I.e. Keep them inside the Cities. It is not about the plausibility of whether a 'realistic' guard force would respond or not, it's about maintaining a suitable premise that promotes the narrative growth of OTHER characters in an already-small world.
  
  
• Similarly, joining the Imperial Guard (or any other) - as a character - which is objectively a paramilitary if not fully militarized force, is a disciplined and rigid commitment which sets an altogether different narrative path for that character. Guard Characters should also not have any business in pursuing bounties or quests that other adventurers - for whom freelance adventure is the focus of THEIR story - would want to enlist in. If High Adventure is the intended pathway for a character, and not Military / Police RP, why have they joined an official, governmental defense force?
  

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Alternate take: the Guards, as an Army:

• None of this is to suggest that Guard Mains (i.e. those who join the Imperial Guard because they actually enjoy the premise for their character and don't just log on for fights) should be denied character growth and involvement in the broader world, too. It merely means that they require a different 'trigger' to begin THEIR adventure.
  
  
• The Imperial Guard is a military organization, so their campaigns begin and end for political and geographical reasons. A rebellion in one of the local towns would be a good premise for Guard adventures. The Parasites were a good excuse for them to take the spotlight, because Cellsvich was the target. Additionally, even something as simple as escorting caravans provides a perfect, humble starting point for a long slog through the wilds and an encounter with some bad guys who have taken your comrades captive.
  
  
• Above all else, the Imperial Guard's events should involve Marching Orders. No orders, no march. No Empire or Republic or whatever else condones unsanctioned actions by those displaying their heraldry, because it reflects upon them, politically.
  

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This isn't a rant, and I've tried to present it as so. I'd like these points to at least be considered, because they do make sense regardless of who is making them.

If you take nothing else away from this - whomever shall be looking - always consider what would make for a better narrative. I don't think people play adventurers just so they can slap generic monsters and fight in the Arena, only to sit on the sidelines whenever they have a chance for some proper conflict in a random encounter with another character.

TY love u all bye
 

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Edit: P.S. - The duty of Adventurers

I just realized that I was blaming the Guards for actually responding to these calls when they absolutely should.

If you guys hate them turning up, don't call for them? The ball is in our court too to progress our stories. If your character isn't someone who is capable of dealing with watching an honest brawl in the forest between two grown men (and therefore feels the need to run and call the Fuzz)... The hell you doing out in the dangerous wilderness?

[Snake]

The kicker is when people call the guards incompetent when we don't turn up in time and give a period of grace for villains to finish their job.

Then call us fun police when we don't.

[MakeshiftWalrus]

I'm going to pre-face this with the fact that I've been a guard for a number of years now. What I say will be biased as a result. It's no secret that I've tried to bring change to how the guard function, though my thoughts were kept between myself, and the guards. I think this is a good opportunity to be more vocal about it in a public setting, though. I had previously written a rather extensive letter to Chaos, but almost nothing came from it. I don't intend to copy-paste it here, but I am going to re-use some of the points I made.

My opinion of the current guard system, is that it sucks being a guard.

At present, the First Squad is very little but a pile of sentient security cameras, with no sign of that changing anytime soon. We clock in, stand around, and clock out all via a Discord channel, and sometimes crime happens while we're online. Most of the time, it doesn't, and we're instead called to handle whoever decided to get a little too violent during a spar, or the latest case of 'The Exploding' the nearest orphanage/hospital/whatever has caught in the breeze. Seldom does the First Squad actually do anything important, and the job can largely be summed up to babysitting, as others has put it.

It's boring. Once you become a guard, you automatically join the faction at the highest rank you can be, which is First Squad, automatically denying all the possible potential your character had from growing through the ranks. It's instead replaced by a deep connection to OOC, because now you need to be picture perfect, with a kickass build, or you're letting the rest of the squad down. You're ICly, and OOCly supposed to be the best of the best. Your character is immediately expected to fall in line, and if you're not up to the task, the general consensus is to be disappointed with the individual.

The faction was originally designed to keep a handle on people trying to gank each other in the middle of cities, and that's what its current function is. But this practice, in its current incarnation, feels more OOC than it does IC, not only because of the previously mentioned expectations, but because of the OOC filtering that goes on prior to even signing up. I'm not going to pretend like I wouldn't personally want to keep certain people out of the guard-- because there are people that I don't feel any strong want to interact with, as much as there are people who feel the same towards me. People I personally perceive as unfit for the position.

But I also think this mentality is archaic, and wrong. It's a filter from a time when the faction required a number of 'Good' players to function. We have that number, and have had so for half a decade now. It's time to start swapping out all of the OOC, and replace it with IC, and for that I have a couple of suggestions:


Ranks, Growth, and Dynamic Progression

As I mentioned before, when you get through the trainee program, you're immediately put in as First Squad. I think this is a terrible example of the guard, both ICly, and OOCly. ICly it makes no sense beyond 'This person is stronger than everyone else', which isn't a great basis for holding office. Not unless you ask the Eternia crowd, anyway. And considering we've had both violent thugs, sadists, ex-cons, and what ever else terrible in the ranks, immediately promoted to First Squad, I personally think it would be better to create a proper, dynamic ranking system players can aspire to be promoted through. That way, we also catch people before they cause IC trouble.

For those of you that aren't aware, we actually do have other ranks than First Squad, which guard-players can create characters for. It has the backwards requirement of needing a First Squad character for it though, before you can make one, because a First Squad character is a requirement for every other incarnation of guard, including making guards in other nations.

We see the success of factions like the Blades, or the Dormehan Militia, and how they tend to handle their ranks, and I shake my head at the decision that the same cannot be done for the Imperial Guard. It would take some cooperation internally, but I don't think any of the current guards would complain about having actual reason to play that isn't just standing around, half tabbed out.


Dynamic Roster

It's absolutely no secret that some guards just don't play their guard-characters, and that's fine. They're dealing with something else, or playing other characters, or some third reason. Nobody is forcing anyone to play something they don't want.

However.

What isn't fine is that this, at present, also takes up slots that other people could be filling within a highly active 'Official' faction. Slots that, in my opinion, should be far, far more dynamic in who occupies them. This not only allows new blood to flow freshly into the decaying husk the Imperial Guard currently is, but it also allows people to experience something only really seen as an exclusive opportunity. Eight slots open maybe once every OOC year, and that's quite frankly ridiculous. The roster shouldn't be open to be joined at all hours of the day, but we should, in my opinion, always be looking to recruit new people the guard think might do well.


Player Agency

This is one is important, it's the very thing people want more of in the world. But as it stands, the Imperial Guard has all the other 'Guard'-factions in a stranglehold. We've only relatively recently started allowing players to hold the position of 'Commander' for the guardships in the other lands, but you're still forced to go through the Imperial guard to gain access to these, which currently keeps them completely locked away from other people who wants to join them, despite often being entirely, or nearly abandoned.

Obviously official factions should have some form of oversight, and grand decisions like executions need to be handled appropriately, but I think it's time to allow these factions to stand on their own feet, and do their own recruitment. Given how little activity the other nations see ordinarily, this might inspire more to happen there.


Final Notes:

These are some of the finer points I've wanted through for many, many months. I'm hoping that this thread might actually bring some long-needed change. I have plenty of more points-- the original document was six full pages long, but these are what I'd like to see change the most, from a guard's, and a player's point of view.

[Tanasinn]

I'm going to post as someone who has never been a guard, but has on occasion been on both sides of asking for guards, and getting guard'd on.

I mostly agree with both Jupiter and Walrus. Guards leaving to tackle things in the middle of the wilderness that weren't large scale terror attacks has never made sense to me, because... They're guards. Going out to nowheresville with 1-2 guards because someone claims 'there's totally something bad happening I swear' feels weird for someone whose job is to keep x location safe.

I've also always been baffled by the fast-tracking to first squad and how you need to nab the once-per-year or once-per-two-years in my experience trainee slot to even hope to make an actual jobber guard-guard. Between both of those, at least, I've personally seen it as a wash; If you aren't friends with a majority of guard players, it just doesn't seem feasible to ever be a guard, not even getting into general troubled communication between guard players on OOC things.

Guards are definitely important. I don't want to have to worry someone is going to make a character for the intent of trying to lolstab everyone in public over and over with no IC reprisal beyond 'be mechanically strong lol', and from an RP sense, I like interacting with guards ICly. I don't know the rules for guard players being 'on the job', but if it feels like they're stuck playing nothing but a camera, then something should definitely change to make it more of an enjoyable thing, because ultimately, that is the entire point of playing the game. Having fun. Even the fun police that exist to ruin all my sick gankz should be allowed to enjoy policing the fun.

As an unrelated to above side note about Arjav, since Arjav and punishment was mentioned in the OP, solitary shouldn't be a thing until someone does something really disruptive when already in Arjav, due to the way it hard locks RP.

[Balor]

Having been the Marshal of Dormememe for half a year, and having been a background guard and trainee for longer. Then I can offer a great deal of insight to both sides of the argument. I will state clearly that Guards are often eating beans in the worst way in the eyes of the community. They try their best but overall motivation among guards is perpetually low.

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1. Guards are largely ineffective as a police force, few of the people that commit recognize them as a threat and more often than not they are disregarded by problem players. On several occasions I have seen guards actions be ignored, posts 'lost' and the general response to them tends to be incredibly rude. I have participated and also experienced it as a spectator. I have also witnessed Vampires attempt to commit suicide in Arjav to escape a day of jail time.

Our punishments are literally soft bans, but when you consider the treatment of guards. Some of them would better be served actual bans.

2. People actively keep things from the Guards and Governments in the game. Largely because we are unaware of which GM, or if the GM's have any control of Governments, guards, etc. In any continent besides Sigrogana. The fact it was unclear that there were guards on the other continents is a testimony to just how ill informed the playerbase is in regards to the people who are supposed to be policing us.

3. The Guards shouldn't be actively tackling things out in the wilderness unless someone made the effort to escape and call for them. While I don't want murderhobos running around with any more freedom than we already allow them. But well thought out scenes meant to start off an antags story by harming a passerby or two, are often derailed by a ganksquad rolling up and hammering the threat into dust. It scares the playerbase from playing antagonists of any shape or form. Though it is not the only reason.

4. Guard loyalty can be questionable. Many Guards are also the antagonists we are often called to arrest or oppose, this can't be helped considering the total number of the playerbase. However it is incredibly discouraging when you show up to arrest some big bads, only to see three of your friends playing the goons of the opposition. While this hasn't actively happened to me, it has happened to Lokus, Hoot, etc. This alone can be discouraging.

5. We've had several situations where guards during peak hours have been unavailable. Meaning the Militia had to spend a good hour or two sitting on our hands with a player who had committed a crime ICly. Typically they were accepting of being thrown in a playerhouse for two hours. However when guards do not show up, we have no real means in the cities outside Cellsvich to deal with them in a mechanical sense.

6. Guard Recruitment needs a solid reform. Poor Amber was overworked, overlooked, and over encumbered with training us and scheduling lessons. I had to wake up at noon when I had signed up for Guard Shifts at 1-3am my time. This was problematic to all involved. Please give our Trainer and Mark a round of applause for getting us over the finish line. PLEASE.

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Here are suggestions to resolve some of the issues at play.

1. Guards should be allowed after a serious fight to lock player down. Essentially a debuff to keep them at 1/100 HP while they are in custody.

2. The other cities should be allowed to have their own prisons. So that the Militia of Dormeho, Tannis, Voilegard can be self sufficient, and it would give them more reason to be active. While oversight from the guards should be present.

3. Guards who are playing Antagonist Alts. Should be required to give their comrades a heads up before events.

4. The active guards need to be rewarded internally more often, and with more authority. A rank reform should also be instituted, there are several ranks that are unused and that is a shame.

[Perdition]

Why would a player need to be debuffed while they're already capped and about to be soft banned? That makes no sense to me.

The biggest problem I have with the guard system is guards being able to roll up to people out in the wilderness which has been brought up already. When I think of guards from other games, they literally stay in the vicinity of their own kingdom/city/whatever and guard it. Why would they be guarding the open plains and forests or whatever outside of their city? That makes 0 sense but it happens all the time.

The other thing is guards being called for absolutely frivolous shit and handing out jail time for it. I know fines have been suggested, but they need to be pushed for hard, because I've seen people jailed for harmless bullshit. It's akin to a police officer being called for someone J walking and them being thrown in the slammer. To add to this point, not only does this happen but -multiple- guards show up for said more or less harmless crimes. Like, why? Would a squadron of police cars show up for someone being drunk and disorderly? I also feel like there's a lot of pressure for the guards to punish -someone- when they show up.

For example, I had a character that was attacked in the middle of Dormeho and guards showed up and arrested my character for being attacked. They literally were not fighting back, had a max size setting sun dropped on them, and were just trying to de-escalate the situation as they knew the other person that was going apeshit in question and they got arrested after being put to half HP and never once having fought back. Oh and, that person that assaulted me? They weren't apprehended LUL. I'm not blaming the guards in question because the system facilitates this, but it leads to some absolutely backwards as fuck shit. Guards don't show up and take statements, they just dole out arrests, especially if the court of public opinion has determined a bad guy before the guards arrive at the scene.

[Anhita]

Right. So uh. Dont have a huge ammount to say here. Most of what Walrus said makes sense to me and would be changes I would like to see. My main problem personally I dunno how the internals of the guards actually works

And thats probably been one of my bigger problems with the guard. Like more often then not, If I ask too much about stuff I am told Im not allowed to know, even on an OOC level. Atleast. Thats how I felt

I haven't played as much lately due to lack of motivation in general. So Im not sure if its still a problem.

Also, when even remotely sniff or think about joining the guard. Many people warn me not too-- Even other guard players. Which is also pretty demotivating and somewhat adds to my somewhat negative perception of things.

Im unsure if I'd fit in being my status of not being some PvP metalord, but I certainly would not mind giving it a shot at some point in the future. Even if its a less combat oriented role. Which-- from what I've seen, theres plenty of mostly unused ranks as people have stated.

[Lolzytripd]

My biggest problem with the guards is that they even exist as a player entity.

My second biggest problem with the guard is that they even interact with antagonists at all.

This is a game about a fantasy setting, not medieval town sim 2020. Heroes should be fighting villain's, Guardsmen should for the most part be weaker than general player characters, with the occasionally named guard hero that may join and requisition a group of heroes during an event. that being said the sheer number of a guard in a city should exist to dissuade player aggression in cities. Instead we have guards using some of the most disgusting meta chasing builds around.

One of the biggest issues with guards (and the game in general) is Consent. I've heard stories of folks being forced into pvp, then getting forced to choose between horrible mutilation or death. I've seen folks get choo choo trained by the Guard, the Guards friends, the guards b squad, then the guards again after a healer rp'd healing them during the second fight only to finally lose, get softbanned in jail, then told that their character was getting executed.

[Balor]

Why would a player need to be debuffed while they're already capped and about to be soft banned? That makes no sense to me.

The biggest problem I have with the guard system is guards being able to roll up to people out in the wilderness which has been brought up already. When I think of guards from other games, they literally stay in the vicinity of their own kingdom/city/whatever and guard it. Why would they be guarding the open plains and forests or whatever outside of their city? That makes 0 sense but it happens all the time.

The other thing is guards being called for absolutely frivolous shit and handing out jail time for it. I know fines have been suggested, but they need to be pushed for hard, because I've seen people jailed for harmless bullshit. It's akin to a police officer being called for someone J walking and them being thrown in the slammer. To add to this point, not only does this happen but -multiple- guards show up for said more or less harmless crimes. Like, why? Would a squadron of police cars show up for someone being drunk and disorderly? I also feel like there's a lot of pressure for the guards to punish -someone- when they show up.

For example, I had a character that was attacked in the middle of Dormeho and guards showed up and arrested my character for being attacked. They literally were not fighting back, had a max size setting sun dropped on them, and were just trying to de-escalate the situation as they knew the other person that was going apeshit in question and they got arrested after being put to half HP and never once having fought back. Oh and, that person that assaulted me? They weren't apprehended LUL. I'm not blaming the guards in question because the system facilitates this, but it leads to some absolutely backwards as fuck shit. Guards don't show up and take statements, they just dole out arrests, especially if the court of public opinion has determined a bad guy before the guards arrive at the scene.

First point. People tend to actively ignore the guard, or undermine arrests/Consequence. While the arrest system can be a soft ban and harsh, personally I feel like many crimes are worthy of those soft bans. Permanently crippling characters/Murder/ etc are permanent consequences in exchange for a week or two in Arjav.

Second Point. Your arrest in Dormeho was not down to popular opinion but your conduct. You ignored the Guards posts several times, refused to acknowledge them until you were forced to, did not explain yourself ICly, and then when confronted in LOOC you proceeded to refer to members of the crowd as 'Autists' and 'Retards'. Only to then try to commit suicide in the lobby of arjav to avoid four hours in prison.

Third point. The Shaitan who assaulted you was given a firm warning after they a senseless, smooth brained newborn. Took the time to acknowledge the guard, explain the situation in detail, and understood that they had disturbed the peace. They were promptly however, arrested a week later for violent conduct and given a harsher sentence than your character for failing to heed or learn from the previous warning.

The reasons you were arrested ICly were not frivolous, and would not have transpired if your character had not made things so difficult for himself.