[Fern]

"GLOBAL FLEUR"

 

The idea of Duelist's Fleur becoming another effect, and critical hits by default giving +2M has been considered at several points. In most cases it was considered to be a crazy idea, and that it would make things pretty horrible. However, a recent discussion in SL2 general amongst community members has brought to light that...

 

It actually isn't that crazy sounding of an idea anymore.

 

The reason it's being considered is because any basic attack build without Volcanic tends to be considered complete garbage, due to the following factors:

 

*You must invest much more stats in comparison to someone building autohits or magic.

 

*Someone building autohits or magic tends to benefit far more than someone buliding basic attacks, despite the amount of effort it requires to make a basic attacker generally speaking. This is because they have more stat points to spend, and since dodge builds (while somewhat better than they used to be) are pretty easy to blow up, Evasion! red text tends to not matter as much specially to anyone building magic damage (which is the current "top" meta, see: spells, custom spell, sources of magic damage in general SPECIALLY now that Indignant Idol exists. Though don't get me wrong, the Idol existing is also good because it somewhat keeps omni-resist stacking in check.)

 

*Due to the amount of damage reduction stacking present in the game, in addition to the ""negligible"" damage basic attackers (usually) have, building critical evade is seen as not too necessary. UNLESS you're accounting for Volcanic, but the issue is that the Volcanic enchant is currently too strong (it's protection ignoring damage that can, in most circumstances, reach 80 to 140~ or sometimes 300~ damage.)

 

"But Fern. Volcanic means basic attackers have something going for them now!"

 

They do. It makes that particular version threatening. But it also railroads you into that version to be good, which harms creativity. And you ideally wouldn't want to harm creativity in a roleplay game of all things!

 

Sawrock has mentioned several times the following, general idea (not word for word but this the general notion of it):

 

"The default momentum bonus for Critical Hits becomes +2, and Fleur becomes another effect, I.E allowing you to not lose momentum on resist when landing a Critical Hit."

List of benefits from the proposed change
 

1. Build creativity is further enabled by encouraging more character builds, allowing for more character concepts to be properly represented mechanically. This also makes it so there's less of a "cookie cutter build" problem (in the sense that, you'd see the less of the same copy pasted setup that makes a particular archetype functional.)
    
   
2. Critical Evade becomes more important to bulid for, rather than a stat that's considered a 'joke' most of the time. This in turn makes the "mega doomwalls" less appealing to build for, making them put more attention into the Critical Evade stat rather than simply putting all their stats into DEF/RES and worrying for little else.
    
   
3. You finally get people to stop (commonly) bitching about basic attacks being garbage. This sounds like a joke bullet point, but I'm serious about it. How many times have you gotten a headache over people saying that basics flat out suck? It's hard to really complain about something that's decent or reasonably good (unless you're a certain Evoker enthusiast... I say this bit jokingly and with love don't worry <3)
    
   
4. You no longer have to nerf so many things into the ground for an entire archetype to be decent. That means you PROBABLY wouldn't have to nerf mages and doomwalls to the ground and go through the headache of sorting out every little thing on that end. If all archetypes are strong, then that means it's pretty easy to have fun in the game. The "rock paper scissors" feeling can stay, but it wouldn't be in a way that's overly apparent to the point you can predict every match up and making watching fights boring. Sure, there would be an advantage, but not to the point that it's so often a guaranteed win on one end I'd say.
    
   
5. Some classes that are considered kind of weak get a benefit from this. I.E, Boxer's Scharfe (the skill that buffs Critical with Schwarz Sturm) finally gets a more appealing use to it, but that's just a quick mention off the top of my head.
   

 

Things to account for if this were to be seriously implemented

1. Volcanic: You're gonna have to nerf this one if you actually make critical hits give +2M by default, I mean it. Currently it's 100% Fire ATK + Weapon Power protection ignoring damage on Critical Hit, so maybe you could just make it 50% Fire ATK + Weapon Power instead. The reasoning for this proposed change? Because in a world where basic attackers are almost always good, you don't HAVE to use Volcanic and could instead keep it as a thematic enchant or something that you can put on just because without crying about how useless it is.
    
   
2. Twin Dance: If this change were to happen, Twin Dance would become the go-to "meta" no questions asked. For reference, this is Twin Dance, the Rogue Main Class passive (https://i.imgur.com/MTFtF1S.png) / So how would we go about preventing it from going bonkers with the aforementioned system? Maybe it could just make it so your second hit doesn't get a critical hit's momentum tracking, but I'm not sure how hard it is to code that in. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm just throwing out an idea.
     
   
3. Bloody Shift: For reference, this is Bloody Shift (https://i.imgur.com/KKQkGcP.png) / I mention this because Phase Fang from Phase Python is a Youkai Evoker that basic attacks and rolls an infliction check to inflict poison while also providing good mobility. This poison can reach LV30, the same as your average Wretched Oil from Hexer. Bloody Shift currently makes Youkai Evokes cost 2M to do, which would turn this into a 2M basic attack that inflicts Poison LV30. If you imagine this in a world where "global fleur" is a thing, you can probably see what I'm getting at. I don't have a good idea for this one chief, but maybe you could make it scale off a fourth of Phase Python's Level so it becomes Poison LV15 max? Or maybe you could just make it so Bloody Shift's exception are Youkai Evokes that make you basic attack. I think the second would be better, frankly, but I'm just spitballing ideas for this one since I'm not so certain. Unless you think Bloody Shift Phase Fang wouldn't get crazy, then by all means, just forget that bit.
    
   
4. Vorpal: Vorpal is currently +10 crit and 10% chance to ignore Phys. Def on a crit. In a world where basic attacks are almost always hypothetically good, I can see how this could get out of hand. You could make the Phys. Def ignoring effect a status that stacks up, similarly to Tarnada Charges, and then is consumed to do its effect. I know what you might be thinking, "wow the guy that always runs Vorpal is proposing a nerf for it" but I really just want basics to be worthwhile. Please.
   

Final Words

This change is pretty big so I can understand if you feel on the fence about it at first, but I think it would be worth thinking about/implementing. It could take a bit of work, but it could turn out pretty good I'd say! And then you could keep mages/autohitters strong as is. I think everybody would be strong with a change like this, with some rock/paper/scissors advantage here and there but not to the point match-ups are always blatantly obvious as to who the victor would be.

   

It would also save the trouble of having to implement a million basic attack passives to make them decent, I'd say.

   

So, what do you think? Please give your feedback and support in order to make this game's PVP and character building less of a heart-breaking nightmare!
 

[Autumn]

The idea of Duelist's Fleur becoming another effect, and critical hits by default giving +2M has been considered at several points. In most cases it was considered to be a crazy idea, and that it would make things pretty horrible. However, a recent discussion in SL2 general amongst community members has brought to light that...

 

It actually isn't that crazy sounding of an idea anymore.

 

The reason it's being considered is because any basic attack build without Volcanic tends to be considered complete garbage, due to the following factors:

-You must invest much more stats in comparison to someone building autohits or magic.

I for one consider it not to be too alien of a change anymore, I used to disagree in the past but given the rise of more basic attacker class setups such as Bonder and Black Knight and Shapeshifter, we're naturally moving into an era where a global fleur is not exactly power creeping anymore.

List of benefits from the proposed change
 

1. Build creativity is further enabled by encouraging more character builds, allowing for more character concepts to be properly represented mechanically. This also makes it so there's less of a "cookie cutter build" problem (in the sense that, you'd see the less of the same copy pasted setup that makes a particular archetype functional.)
    
   
   
2. Critical Evade becomes more important to bulid for, rather than a stat that's considered a 'joke' most of the time. This in turn makes the "mega doomwalls" less appealing to build for, making them put more attention into the Critical Evade stat rather than simply putting all their stats into DEF/RES and worrying for little else.
    
   
   
3. You finally get people to stop (commonly) bitching about basic attacks being garbage. This sounds like a joke bullet point, but I'm serious about it. How many times have you gotten a headache over people saying that basics flat out suck? It's hard to really complain about something that's decent or reasonably good (unless you're a certain Evoker enthusiast... I say this bit jokingly and with love don't worry <3)
    
   
   
4. You no longer have to nerf so many things into the ground for an entire archetype to be decent. That means you PROBABLY wouldn't have to nerf mages and doomwalls to the ground and go through the headache of sorting out every little thing on that end. If all archetypes are strong, then that means it's pretty easy to have fun in the game. The "rock paper scissors" feeling can stay, but it wouldn't be in a way that's overly apparent to the point you can predict every match up and making watching fights boring. Sure, there would be an advantage, but not to the point that it's so often a guaranteed win on one end I'd say.
    
   
   
5. Some classes that are considered kind of weak get a benefit from this. I.E, Boxer's Scharfe (the skill that buffs Critical with Schwarz Sturm) finally gets a more appealing use to it, but that's just a quick mention off the top of my head.
   

I would like to add one more benefit that sort of falls under rule 4 in this regard, but should be noted out:

-With the rise of basic attackers would mean the rise of dodge builds being considered a lot more viable as a result, given that dodge is in a state where hit builds can and may struggle with their high evasiveness, this would give far more value to a dodgy character, proxy buffing them as a result and allowing them to fulfill their niche defensive effort a bit more effectively, this also gives more importance to not relying entirely on basic attackers in a party comp and may even give rise to supports focused on enchanting an ally's hit vs someone else, the ripples caused by this change would be pretty massive.

Things to account for if this were to be seriously implemented

[*]Volcanic: You're gonna have to nerf this one if you actually make critical hits give +2M by default, I mean it. Currently it's 100% Fire ATK + Weapon Power protection ignoring damage on Critical Hit, so maybe you could just make it 50% Fire ATK + Weapon Power instead. The reasoning for this proposed change? Because in a world where basic attackers are almost always good, you don't HAVE to use Volcanic and could instead keep it as a thematic enchant or something that you can put on just because without crying about how useless it is.
[/list]

Yes this I will have to agree with fully, Volcanic's current iteration has been seen as slightly overpowering, it was a good direction for the enchant, but its power is beyond expectations right now.

[*]Twin Dance: If this change were to happen, Twin Dance would become the go-to "meta" no questions asked. For reference, this is Twin Dance, the Rogue Main Class passive (https://i.imgur.com/MTFtF1S.png) / So how would we go about preventing it from going bonkers with the aforementioned system? Maybe it could just make it so your second hit doesn't get a critical hit's momentum tracking, but I'm not sure how hard it is to code that in. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm just throwing out an idea.

I agree that twin dance would become very strong, my general idea for twin dance is that you could just make it so that a global fleur can only proc once, giving added value to twin dance sure but not as hard as initially perceived, this would in turn disallow for 1m movement abuse or 4m skills which is likely for the best all things considering the former of the two.

• Bloody Shift: For reference, this is Bloody Shift (https://i.imgur.com/KKQkGcP.png) / I mention this because Phase Fang from Phase Python is a Youkai Evoker that basic attacks and rolls an infliction check to inflict poison while also providing good mobility. This poison can reach LV30, the same as your average Wretched Oil from Hexer. Bloody Shift currently makes Youkai Evokes cost 2M to do, which would turn this into a 2M basic attack that inflicts Poison LV30. If you imagine this in a world where "global fleur" is a thing, you can probably see what I'm getting at. I don't have a good idea for this one chief, but maybe you could make it scale off a fourth of Phase Python's Level so it becomes Poison LV15 max? Or maybe you could just make it so Bloody Shift's exception are Youkai Evokes that make you basic attack. I think the second would be better, frankly, but I'm just spitballing ideas for this one since I'm not so certain. Unless you think Bloody Shift Phase Fang wouldn't get crazy, then by all means, just forget that bit.
  

Bloody Shift would have to change with global fleur given its purpose would be fulfilled entirely, I'd instead opt in to have it increase youkai evoke damage after landing a critical hit, to maintain the same flow it once did, and prevent further abuse with river sword.

Everything else in the thread I agree with entirely, I am of the opinion that a drastic change like this could shift up the playing field in a positive way.

[Lewdcifer]

The idea of Duelist's Fleur becoming another effect, and critical hits by default giving +2M has been considered at several points. In most cases it was considered to be a crazy idea, and that it would make things pretty horrible. However, a recent discussion in SL2 general amongst community members has brought to light that...

It actually isn't that crazy sounding of an idea anymore.

The idea has been brought to light multiple times, and the discussions in regards to the topic usually concluded on a positive/supportive note. This is something I believe as well -- if critical hits, by default, gave two momentum? Rather than causing a generally unwanted change, it would open the gates for so many possibilities and a great amount of fun ideas that would otherwise be impossible due to the current state of critical hits without Fleur (or Bloody Shift). Basic attacker builds would no longer be shoehorned into specific setups with little to no variety, which would be a welcome change for sure.

The reason it's being considered is because any basic attack build without Volcanic tends to be considered complete garbage, due to the following factors:
*You must invest much more stats in comparison to someone building autohits or magic.
*Someone building autohits or magic tends to benefit far more than someone buliding basic attacks, despite the amount of effort it requires to make a basic attacker generally speaking [...].
*Due to the amount of damage reduction stacking present in the game, in addition to the ""negligible"" damage basic attackers (usually) have, building critical evade is seen as not too necessary [...].

Most of this is true.
Volcanic has become somewhat of a staple enchant for basic attack builds due to the sheer amount of bonus damage you can get from it, and it does help such builds greatly; but I personally believe that, despite the presence of this enchant, basic attack builds still suffer in the absence of Fleur and/or Bloody Shift.
Autohit and magic builds alike generally have a much more easier time than basic attack builds do, because they don't have to bother themselves with Hit, Critical, Evade (if applicable), Damage and Critical Damage (if applicable), Defenses, and so on. For such builds, it boils down to Damage and Defenses as a bare minimum; whereas for basic hitting builds it boils down to all of the aforementioned stats as a bare minimum, in part because the amount of stat points they have to distribute for their build to be functional is far greater in comparison.
I would personally like to disagree, to an extent, in regards to Critical Evade not being so... necessary. Certain builds simply melt when faced against a basic atacker that can land critical hits on them, but this does not necessarily apply to each and every build.

Volcanic: You're gonna have to nerf this one if you actually make critical hits give +2M by default, I mean it. Currently it's 100% Fire ATK + Weapon Power protection ignoring damage on Critical Hit, so maybe you could just make it 50% Fire ATK + Weapon Power instead. The reasoning for this proposed change? Because in a world where basic attackers are almost always good, you don't HAVE to use Volcanic and could instead keep it as a thematic enchant or something that you can put on just because without crying about how useless it is.

Yeeeep. Volcanic's really strong currently, and in a world where everyone gets 2 momentum per critical hit, it'd become the optimal choice (more than it already is). Any nerfs of any kind would be welcome, so as to grant other enchants some relevance.
 

Twin Dance: If this change were to happen, Twin Dance would become the go-to "meta" no questions asked. For reference, this is Twin Dance, the Rogue Main Class passive (https://i.imgur.com/MTFtF1S.png) / So how would we go about preventing it from going bonkers with the aforementioned system? Maybe it could just make it so your second hit doesn't get a critical hit's momentum tracking, but I'm not sure how hard it is to code that in. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm just throwing out an idea.

Given how critical momentum tracking works currently, this would mean that each weapon would net you two momentum per critical, if it lands. This, in turn, means that two weapons is four bonus momentum, potentially speaking. Put Twin Dance in the equation, and this means that each basic attack would net you four bonus momentum by default.

Yikes.

Fern's idea is not a bad approach at all, and is a change I'd suggest as well. But beyond Twin Dance itself? I feel that, regardless of class/weapon/etc., players should not be able to get more than two bonus momentum per crit, per round.
  

Bloody Shift: For reference, this is Bloody Shift (https://i.imgur.com/KKQkGcP.png) / I mention this because Phase Fang from Phase Python is a Youkai Evoker that basic attacks and rolls an infliction check to inflict poison while also providing good mobility. This poison can reach LV30, the same as your average Wretched Oil from Hexer. Bloody Shift currently makes Youkai Evokes cost 2M to do, which would turn this into a 2M basic attack that inflicts Poison LV30. If you imagine this in a world where "global fleur" is a thing, you can probably see what I'm getting at. I don't have a good idea for this one chief, but maybe you could make it scale off a fourth of Phase Python's Level so it becomes Poison LV15 max? Or maybe you could just make it so Bloody Shift's exception are Youkai Evokes that make you basic attack. I think the second would be better, frankly, but I'm just spitballing ideas for this one since I'm not so certain. Unless you think Bloody Shift Phase Fang wouldn't get crazy, then by all means, just forget that bit.

Ehh. Phase Fang aside...
Bloody Shift's thing is to function as some kind of Fleur that functions based on Youkai Evokes. With the addition of global fleur, this passive would lose relevance and become somewhat obsolete -- it could likely stand to be removed altogether if this change went through.

[Fern]

In retrospective, I'm honestly not worried about Bloody Shift or Phase Fang, I wouldn't mind those two being untouched if global fleur became a thing.

Mostly because most of the fun in Shapeshifter as far as I know is the Bloody Shift combos and I'd rather not take that away from them. It probably won't be that bad anyway.

So, personally not gonna think on that one too hard anymore. I'd say the biggest ones to care about are Volcanic and Twin Dance honestly.

[JamOfBoy]

Basic hitting is fun. Bonder, for me, in particular, is one of my favourite classes. Yet time and time again, I look at those with duelist main class, and I am sat there, dealing with this horrible sense of envy and want. I could hit people two times with my 100 SWA dagger with 202.33 crit modifier and 300 hit and STILL run away! It's then replaced with concerns for balance, then these weird faint whispers of "make a thread about global fleur" start creeping in, then I think about how I'd begin to word such a proposal, then I go lie down and cry. So props for doing this, I personally would like global fleur - whatever that's worth.

Don't forget about Akimbo from MG amidst the concerns over Twin Dance. Akimbo isn't even main class restricted.

[Shujin]

I am not sure if that truly helps overall. While I can see the points being made, and agree that it won't really make them OP, I worry a bit that all this does is creating even more ways on dealing even more damage instead of toning down on some of those extremly silly numbers.

Basicaly fighting fire by starting a second fire next to it, turning everything into too high damage things without reducing the big outliners (Except for vulcanic thats way too strong even at 50% of its current strength considering its range.) This makes all fights just end even faster and a single unlucky positioning (or starting at the end of the turn cause turn order being weird) is basically meaning you are dead in a team fight before you could even act.

These are simply the worries I have and still believe other things should rather be scaled down, than everything else up to it. PvE balance in a sense needs to be also kept in mind.

[Fern]

I understand your concerns.

Personally I don't think of it as simply 'creating more ways of dealing even more damage', and more so 'more character build concepts can happen in a game that's already pretty frowned at for being mostly restricted to basic cookie-cutter meta.'

Volcanic is indeed too strong right now, but I think at half efficiency the numbers wouldn't be as big on average. It would still hurt if you built specifically for it on paper, but I think it's okay to excel at something you've specifically built for (in most cases.)

The "unlucky positioning" example already takes place in the current group fights, except that instead of exploding to basics, you normally explode to either a group of magic damage or autohitters. I believe this will be a thing regardless of what Dev does, since it's not just a SL2 thing in my eyes - it's a strategy RPG game thing in general. This sort of thing can happen in Fire Emblem and the like too.

Not trying to say the concern doesn't matter but I feel that it's kind of pointless to think a bit too much about it when it'll happen no matter what's done. It's most frequent with dodgies, too.

[Balor]

Okay first stop on the gravy train.

Volcanic isn't too good, it's a crutch. One that can be gouged out by crit evade, or by the fabled steel aura of a Black Knight. Not to say that it isn't strong, but if Volcanic is to be touched then the overall damage of basic attacks needs to go up universally. Or rather the calculations made more lenient to guile or to the base swa. Atm without Volcanic melee basic attackers against tanks are just resets for more potent autohits. Kensei-Combos, BK combos, etc.

Before we move on to a global fleur we should either bring up other basic attack buffing enchantments up to Volcanics level, or buff basic attacks up to snuff because with or without fleur as they are? They are underperforming and are with a little bit of effort easily negated down to sub 50 damage per hit.

Second stop.

Global Fleur, nah.

But there is a precedence for classes to have their own Fleur Equivalents that reduce the cost of main class skills much in the vein of Shapeshifter. We struggle for build diversity, but we also struggle for class identity and I believe that rather than giving everyone fleur. We can easily just apply it to classes as an opt in that would benefit them. As Jam above mentioned Bonder is a predominantly basic attacking class outside of the use of Youkai.

Allowing crits to reduce the cost of other main class skills by 1 once per turn you could warpstrike into pinball, into a move. Or take into account Black Knight with a refund of 1 to the next Mainclass skill used?

You could Move>Hanging>Crit>Crescent Rook.

Classes like BK and Bonder could stand to feel the same love as Rogue and it's subclasses, and Duelist do. However I don't feel any other classes design wise need it. Mages don't need it. Martial Artist doesn't need it. Boxer don't need it. But it's clear that Dev feels certain classes deserve momentum refunds, and rather than a global Fleur? These classes that are built with basic attacking in their DNA should see some love.


TLDR: Basic Attack numbers need to be looked at before we start nerfing their enchantments because we're relying on crutches. Not everyone needs Fleur, but a few classes could benefit and would fit their class identity more with momentum refunds.

[Autumn]

Okay first stop on the gravy train.

Volcanic isn't too good, it's a crutch. One that can be gouged out by crit evade, or by the fabled steel aura of a Black Knight. Not to say that it isn't strong, but if Volcanic is to be touched then the overall damage of basic attacks needs to go up universally. Or rather the calculations made more lenient to guile or to the base swa. Atm without Volcanic melee basic attackers against tanks are just resets for more potent autohits. Kensei-Combos, BK combos, etc.

Before we move on to a global fleur we should either bring up other basic attack buffing enchantments up to Volcanics level, or buff basic attacks up to snuff because with or without fleur as they are? They are underperforming and are with a little bit of effort easily negated down to sub 50 damage per hit.

Second stop.

Global Fleur, nah.

But there is a precedence for classes to have their own Fleur Equivalents that reduce the cost of main class skills much in the vein of Shapeshifter. We struggle for build diversity, but we also struggle for class identity and I believe that rather than giving everyone fleur. We can easily just apply it to classes as an opt in that would benefit them. As Jam above mentioned Bonder is a predominantly basic attacking class outside of the use of Youkai.

Allowing crits to reduce the cost of other main class skills by 1 once per turn you could warpstrike into pinball, into a move. Or take into account Black Knight with a refund of 1 to the next Mainclass skill used?

You could Move>Hanging>Crit>Crescent Rook.

Classes like BK and Bonder could stand to feel the same love as Rogue and it's subclasses, and Duelist do. However I don't feel any other classes design wise need it. Mages don't need it. Martial Artist doesn't need it. Boxer don't need it. But it's clear that Dev feels certain classes deserve momentum refunds, and rather than a global Fleur? These classes that are built with basic attacking in their DNA should see some love.


TLDR: Basic Attack numbers need to be looked at before we start nerfing their enchantments because we're relying on crutches. Not everyone needs Fleur, but a few classes could benefit and would fit their class identity more with momentum refunds.

I do want to mention specifically in regards to giving other classes their own version of Fleur, there are only so many variations that you can muster thinking of before it ends up just being a matter of thinking "Why would you even do this" when they achieve the same goal regardless, there are merits to both your method proposed and to just one streamlined system, in that the former of which can be tied to class mechanics such as black wind or stalemate, and the latter is universally easier to understand and learn to play around.

[Balor]

Okay first stop on the gravy train.

Volcanic isn't too good, it's a crutch. One that can be gouged out by crit evade, or by the fabled steel aura of a Black Knight. Not to say that it isn't strong, but if Volcanic is to be touched then the overall damage of basic attacks needs to go up universally. Or rather the calculations made more lenient to guile or to the base swa. Atm without Volcanic melee basic attackers against tanks are just resets for more potent autohits. Kensei-Combos, BK combos, etc.

Before we move on to a global fleur we should either bring up other basic attack buffing enchantments up to Volcanics level, or buff basic attacks up to snuff because with or without fleur as they are? They are underperforming and are with a little bit of effort easily negated down to sub 50 damage per hit.

Second stop.

Global Fleur, nah.

But there is a precedence for classes to have their own Fleur Equivalents that reduce the cost of main class skills much in the vein of Shapeshifter. We struggle for build diversity, but we also struggle for class identity and I believe that rather than giving everyone fleur. We can easily just apply it to classes as an opt in that would benefit them. As Jam above mentioned Bonder is a predominantly basic attacking class outside of the use of Youkai.

Allowing crits to reduce the cost of other main class skills by 1 once per turn you could warpstrike into pinball, into a move. Or take into account Black Knight with a refund of 1 to the next Mainclass skill used?

You could Move>Hanging>Crit>Crescent Rook.

Classes like BK and Bonder could stand to feel the same love as Rogue and it's subclasses, and Duelist do. However I don't feel any other classes design wise need it. Mages don't need it. Martial Artist doesn't need it. Boxer don't need it. But it's clear that Dev feels certain classes deserve momentum refunds, and rather than a global Fleur? These classes that are built with basic attacking in their DNA should see some love.


TLDR: Basic Attack numbers need to be looked at before we start nerfing their enchantments because we're relying on crutches. Not everyone needs Fleur, but a few classes could benefit and would fit their class identity more with momentum refunds.

I do want to mention specifically in regards to giving other classes their own version of Fleur, there are only so many variations that you can muster thinking of before it ends up just being a matter of thinking "Why would you even do this" when they achieve the same goal regardless, there are merits to both your method proposed and to just one streamlined system, in that the former of which can be tied to class mechanics such as black wind or stalemate, and the latter is universally easier to understand and learn to play around.

I don't think that either is necessarily hard to understand. Considering that Rogue's Twin Dance, Shapeshifters Bloody Shift, and Magic Gunners akimbo exist and all three are easily understood. I don't think that it comes down to what is easier to understand, and rather what has precedent. Which has shown that Dev specifically chooses what he wants to have momentum refunds.