[Autumn]

Frustration goes away with getting used to it, is all I believe. We had this happen several times whenever any big changes were pushed through, and over time most of the fun things got nerfed or rebalanced. That's always been our way to do things and honestly, it's the way that works the most.

And yes, tbh if both of the major issues stated are addressed (blind and glancing blows), we can see the state of the game from there, and then tackle the problems that only get amplified by the default. (Such as how base hit vastly surpasses evade stacking, and only Rogue or Boxer are ever allowed to reliably dodge things)

This amount of work done that could've been on making our Main Scenario Quest continuation shouldn't be dismissed just because some people can't be patient until this is put at a better spot. Tis all I believe, of course. My own opinion.

For me this is a bumpy ride that everyone's getting nauseated for having a weak stomach, in alternate words.

Have faith in Dev, dudes. Better late than never.

You have tackled none of the points even made, we have had this happen several times but I do not believe this to be a case that is so simply pushed aside as it has before in the past, the mindset of ignoring it until the complaints stop will not exactly work in this scenario. I also believe you have missed the point of this thread (as more than a few have) as I am also complimenting a lot of what makes this update good, if I must re-iterate then let me state. 

A very good portion of the update, 9/10ths of it is for the better of the game, it is only one aspect of it which is toxic enough to cause a noticeable difference in my desire to craft builds and want to play the game quite as much.

Buffing Dodge and hoping it works out is not going to do us any good, several people have already tackled the point that if evade becomes high enough to where everyone runs it, then that's gonna effectively change nothing about how fun the game is, as the interaction of who's having fun simply shifts over.

Dismissing the thoughts and opinions of everyone in the thread so easily is a very poor decision to be making. There is no ungrateful part in saying that the vast majority of the update; evasion and accuracy rebalances, and systems is good, except for this one part which ruins the experience.

[WaifuApple]

On the topic of tweaking the system, rather than buffing it, I don't mind if tweaks are made and things are fixed and made better in that way - so long as things are better. But that's not what I take issue with - it's the fact that it was declared as if it was fact that there was literally NO other option. Nobody aside from Dev is in any position to be telling people to rule out options.

And for people saying to have faith - we're here in balance fu trying to get things changed for a reason. Solely relying on blind faith and nothing more would mean saying nothing and just trusting that Dev knows exactly what he's doing as far as balance is concerned without any input whatsoever - and I must not be the only one who can not 100% say I do. This is where we discuss what's wrong and what we want to see change, not where we cross our fingers and hope it gets better.

On my part, I believe that a system that is inherently frustrating and motivation ruining, such as this one, is not one you should so readily be willing to say "Let's just get used to it". In it's current state, it needs changes. We can get used to the system when the system starts being healthy for the game.

In situations like the first great reckoning, what happened was ultimately healthy for the game in the end. But as it is, we're a few patch note posts away from anything "healthy" with this. A kind of defense stat so good people are more interested in subverting it entirely than playing into it. The evade system currently runs on numbers that lie to your face - which there are very much suggestions for, of course. High durability, protection from inflictions, critical momentum, the potential to dodge entirely - all contained within a single stat.

We were calling out for build diversity, but we are so, so far short of it right now. And it hurts so much seeing the wide reaching pain of the community as I hear of people suffering and feeling miserable trying to retool themselves, the characters they like, and the builds they came with into a new system.

We're playing a game, and when that game isn't fun, people aren't going to sit and wait weeks for it to become fun. I don't see why it would be any different here. But unlike every triple A game ever, we have a voice here. So expect frustration, expect people wanting to go back.

The people posting here are the people who are willing to believe their words might change SOMETHING. And they have different desires about the end goal - what it looks like.

It would be nice for people to try not to tell others to stop having their own desires on how to see the system fixed until those desires are completely shot down.

[Snake]

(...)

(...)

Dismissing the thoughts and opinions of everyone in the thread so easily is a very poor decision to be making. There is no ungrateful part in saying that the vast majority of the update; evasion and accuracy rebalances, and systems is good, except for this one part which ruins the experience.

It wasn't really aimed at anyone in particular but the ones who'd inevitably feel offended to be asked to 'hit the brakes a sec' for wilding with their opinions. Not once I said the OP is wrong. What I find wrong is wanting to go back and 'period' just because they lost their cheesy dodgetank autohit builds, fallenharn 'rookies' or broken mage builds (which are still broken, thanks to things that are not being addressed because people wanna 'go back') at the flick of an index.

The 'go back' mentality kind of limits people from gaining a distaste for particular things, and look at it as a whole. In very little time when most got burned out of repeating that, we discovered better ways to ease the load on things, such as the 'glorious' idea to make Glancing Blows only happen if the first check is not a Hit. That's just the beginning and I wish I could fan the idea more.

I'm with you, Amber. Maybe a step over to the point where I wanna continue believing "blindly" as some say up there, that this will get somewhere better over time. Going back shouldn't be considered just yet. I think this system still has walls to be hit. The feel of a 'full evade' is very rewarding, makes sense for the meaning of the word 'evade', and at the very least should be more significant in PvE scenarios, if people hate so much to not do any damage to some speedy gonzales.

The only thing that's making this ride 'bumpy' is the fact we can't reach a fair consensus without another survey. Yike.

Hate how I'm being crucified when I was the one who put up like 6-7 balance-fu threads and didn't get more than a single reply on each. Shows how much the care fluctuates. I've tackled the points, just not in a single thread. After everyone's own opinions about it rather than condensing things into huge walls per post of people saying the same thing and not being helpful. Me included.

[WaifuApple]

People have offered their thoughts on why they think just sticking with the current system is a problem, beyond just numbers and mechanics, and down to how intrinsically unfun it is. Nothing about this is just from people running cheesy builds wanting to go back to a crazy dominance. People who had a theme and stuck with it now find themselves unable to execute it even with sacrifices in the new system, because this and that in terms of stats have become absolutely mandatory, with no room for improvement.

Guess for them it's time to completely change what their character is all about, a shamed upon practice because people don't like seeing others change entirely to fit the meta, sacrificing what they WERE in the process. But that'll happen, because the changes shut down more than just cheese. This just gave rise to new kinds of cheese, if anything.

Again, all I see is dismissiveness about a point of view you don't agree with, and upset that it's seemingly not okay to do that, more balance fu posts doesn't put you on a podium - we disagree on how to go forward. It's not wild at all to want to step back now. After all, not all of us see the system as it is, even with fixes, as something that would be more positive than adjusting what we had.

I am not really interested in anyone trying to stall out and say "we'll consider it later". It's not going to BE an option later. We keep all options on the table, and anyone trying to gatekeep what can and can't be an option should reconsider.

[Snake]

We're due for the words of boss man in this thread already. Tis all I can say.

[Miller]

It wasn't really aimed at anyone in particular but the ones who'd inevitably feel offended to be asked to 'hit the brakes a sec' for wilding with their opinions. Not once I said the OP is wrong. What I find wrong is wanting to go back and 'period' just because they lost their cheesy dodgetank autohit builds, fallenharn 'rookies' or broken mage builds (which are still broken, thanks to things that are not being addressed because people wanna 'go back') at the flick of an index.

The 'go back' mentality kind of limits people from gaining a distaste for particular things, and look at it as a whole. In very little time when most got burned out of repeating that, we discovered better ways to ease the load on things, such as the 'glorious' idea to make Glancing Blows only happen if the first check is not a Hit. That's just the beginning and I wish I could fan the idea more.

The only thing that's making this ride 'bumpy' is the fact we can't reach a fair consensus without another survey. Yike.

Hate how I'm being crucified when I was the one who put up like 6-7 balance-fu threads and didn't get more than a single reply on each. Shows how much the care fluctuates. I've tackled the points, just not in a single thread. After everyone's own opinions about it rather than condensing things into huge walls per post of people saying the same thing and not being helpful. Me included.

Multiple posts and OP have gone on about things we like and dislike about the changes while a lot of posts have focused on the fact that some are not satisfied with how evasion plays out right now. Your posts come off as incredibly dismissive when your response to people that feel like a reversion to the previous way of doing evasion might be the best choice, is by saying it wasn't possible / it won't happen because you disagreed with it and not something Dev has personally said he's not interested in doing. If you believe that won't get a slightly annoyed reply, then you need to take step back. 

It's entirely fine to have an opinion and get a bit heated over it, but outright denying people who have a certain mentality because you disagree with it is not fine to do when the option was given from the start. That's all I will really say on the matter as this thread has gotten derailed.

[sadbot]

It wasn't really aimed at anyone in particular but the ones who'd inevitably feel offended to be asked to 'hit the brakes a sec' for wilding with their opinions. Not once I said the OP is wrong. What I find wrong is wanting to go back and 'period' just because they lost their cheesy dodgetank autohit builds, fallenharn 'rookies' or broken mage builds (which are still broken, thanks to things that are not being addressed because people wanna 'go back') at the flick of an index.

I'm not sure how you miss the irony of dismissing everyone who wants to revert as wanting their 'cheesy dodgetank autohit builds' back while simultaneously pointing out that these builds are still strong, when you're suggesting that they want reversion because they're not strong anymore.

My verglas is a prime example. I had to change almost nothing except my weapon after the changes, and the build remains as strong as it was before the update due to a strong evasion ignore toolkit. I've done a fair amount of pvp since the rework, and have lost only one fight because I got caught by surprise and rushed down. Despite all of that, I have absolutely no desire to pvp and have had my love for verglas killed after testing the rework for myself as the class is now condensed into two attacks and has lost all flexibility and variety. Say what you want about evasion ignore and how this just means that needs changing, but myself and others have already voiced concerns with the alternative of hit and evade and how it's difficult to properly balance and how it wouldn't be enjoyable even if it was perfectly balanced.

I think it's unfair to make out like everyone suggesting reversion is just not liking what they see and making a knee jerk reaction instead of trying to work with the new system. It's clear from the various opinions and suggestions in this thread that they have taken a lot of time to analyze and test the system. I think it's fair to say that most people want most other relevant changes besides the evasion rework kept if things were reverted. Those of us suggesting a reversion to the old system just see the new system for what it is and what it could be, and think that the gameplay is objectively unfun either way.

[Snake]

I just believe full evasion is neat and should stay to an extent. Even if you'd only see that happening in PvE or, when in PvP scenarios, against a very skewered Hit vs Dodge rates from people who have completely dumped SKI. Like a notable difference of negatives or whatever.

Hell, there's even the possibility of hard capping Hit to 250% and Evade to 200% that no one let loose a chirp about. And by hard cap I mean like the cap we have on stat distribution. Can't go past 250% even with all the buffs and debuffs in the world, and same goes for Evade.

My supposed 'annoyance' that many are making up (?) is that no one even want to consider alternative methods of handling this, like limiting that mechanic to PvE-only or whatever goes.

If the issue is solely PvP and all the testing was done with PvP for PvP reasons, why should PvE be affected by it? That's where it personally shines the most for me and most of the people who don't give a hell to arena wins anyway.

[WaifuApple]

You're free to that opinion, nobody would say you weren't. You just started basically telling people that they weren't allowed theirs. Problematic, to say the least.

Hard-caps really aren't the way to go, they remove room for things to be dynamic because the goal would then just be to reach as close to hard cap as possible and stay there. Things should be dynamic, but they should not fluctuate nearly as much.

The alternates have been considered, in a sense, but many have decided that the benefits of going back outweigh the benefits of weathering the storm, and trying to salvage something that at base just holds a semblance of being unfun.

Not to mention eventmin balancing in PvE getting a lot harder - that'll make people so much less enthusiastic about participating in or even running events, and when PvE events become unviable / unfun we end up going back to PvP anyway.

I'm sure some people find it cathartic to full dodge, but on the other end people will find it miserable to full miss. And in a system of PvE, people are likely gonna wanna ask the nearest magic gunner to take a gun to their head than have mobs full dodging them with high CEL (making dodgy mobs unviable because the only balance solution there would be to reduce their CEL values to the point where they're not really dodgy at all, instead just pushovers)

We don't need one system for this, and another system for that, if anything that just makes things confusing for new players who end up having to be told why something works this way rather than that way in the switch between combat types. We need one, clear, competent system for combat as a whole.

One that is fun to play, doesn't complicate event running by making it require even harder fine tuning (since that's where most plot will be and I don't see it get even nearly enough consideration in these talks as is), and doesn't sacrifice one person's enjoyment in a fight in return for the other person's.

[Snake]

I just want to clarify that I didn't intend to say 'shut up ur al wronge' while climbing on top of a pole and doing the monki flip. I'm still ya' boye Kuan. ;_;

The tone I want to have is of someone who's asking 'let's completely have no objections to this together and milk this dry to the point there's no benefits to keep it'. I don't want to derail this and if this ever got derailed it was warranted due to the lack of good and fair points made.

Which look? It didn't! In the end I got what I wanted. Well-structured objections to my views to come in. This all is being very productive so far. I'm slowly being convinced over time, but I still have this bug behind my ear. "Is this truly all we could do with this new system?"

I just don't want for the community to repeat the same mistake we had with Pixel Movement, which was something that could have gotten better with enough fleshing out.