[Shujin]

I wanted to invite for a discussion thread about Evasion ignoring true Autohit skills.

We have gotten alot more new evasion ignoring skills and even before there were a few that I felt didn't "deserve" having that tag (looking at you Falcon strike)

but WHAT should be conditions for skills with that tag in the future, which still feel FAIR? a Cooldown is in my opinion NOT the way to go, unless its really long, cause else you just rotate between your set of them.


Skills I think are FINE with evasion ignore:
Thousand Stab+Charge+Charge strike-> 2 tile range of the actual attack, charge has a CD when moved a certain distance, needs a whole 3 skill slots. not too strong, Deserved in my opinion.
Lance de Lion-> High FP costs, lengthy CD, relatively short range that can't be easily followed up on if the opponent stays atleast 4 tiles away which is feasible.
Rapid Kick->I think it was mostly fine, considering it had only a 1tile range. You could add the condition that you need to use it in one tile but have IPG or IPB active or combo effect (Verglas misses those honestly). The 1 tile range being the key factor here.
Invocations-> Sorta, kinda okay. I feel like invocations have far less counterplay than they used to have, but they take decently long to charge so fair enough.
Eliminate-> Honestly, always needed it. needs alot of Void energery, fairly long set up, a decent CD attached ontop. Great range, but enough set up to justify.
Setting sun-> Easy enough avoidable if you go for the Auto launch and if you do the manual one, it costs some extra M and your class resource. 

Skills I think are not okay:
Falconstrike -> At the top. High mobility skill with decent damage, awkward hit box from the point of landing instead of execution (making it harder to ultilize parries against it.) minimal CD, fairly cheap. In my opinion everything wrong with evasion ignoring skills summed into one skill.
Explosion-> While it makes sense, way to spammable and way too little you can do about it. Just no.
Lift Off-> While fairly short range, its another evasion ignore on FB that needs no set up, and can easily be tied to any "Evasion ignoring rotation", cause why deal with mechanics when you can just ignore them.
Grandupper-> I have thought about this one for a bit, but ultimately decided that this skill probably does too much with too little counterplay. SS is very easily gained, it happens passively, and this skill can effectively remove someone for 2 whole turns from the fight having MASSIVE team synergy potential alone from that, and deals a lot of damage. It DOESN'T need evasion ignore on top of it. Maybe the second part only, cause that makes sense. Its also the "Ultimate" of the class, which is why I was on the fence on this one.

I could make a list for all skills but would like to invite other to share thoughs, about how they think we could make it so, those future introductions of evasion ignoring skills feel fair and balanced. Basically have a rough guideline how much set up a fair evasion ignoring skill needs and what else its tied to, to be "fair". Having too many also feels probably...Contraproductive and probably rails us back to pre "GR2" in terms of whats worth buiilding. One of the reasons why I am fine with Rapid kick taking the L, even though I never considered it a problem child in the evasion ignore "Meta".

[Jeff]

Discussions about which class abilities should have +hit added to them, and about which skills should ignore evasion, fail to address the underlying issue. If your truck is making funny sounds and has problems starting, you don't paint it and get new tires. You pop the hood.

It's time to pop the hood on hit and evasion as a whole, rather than trying to hand out peace meal to enough subclasses to keep people from complaining.

[Snake]

So Rapid Kick is okay to ignore Evasion in a class that already has another skill that ignores evasion and strictly scales from SKI, but not Grandupper, which consumes all your resources and is the only thing in the entirety of Boxer that does, is not?

Hmmmmmmmm...

[Collector]

Explosion has a cooldown. It is not 'spammable'.

Firebird is going to hit the dodgie anyway provided they're not blind.

Blind needs a fix. Evade needs to be reworked again.

[Lolzytripd]

I think we are at the point where each clas should only have one per weapon type and they should share a cooldown

[Shujin]

So Rapid Kick is okay to ignore Evasion in a class that already has another skill that ignores evasion and strictly scales from SKI, but not Grandupper, which consumes all your resources and is the only thing in the entirety of Boxer that does, is not?

Hmmmmmmmm...

first off, its NOT the only evasion ignore skill, the other one is fine though (it also ignores armor though)
secondly grandupper doesn't actually have a one tile range, thanks to Geistschritt, thirdly ...It does a couple more effects, don't you think?

Also the class already scaling from Ski mostly is not an argument against or for evasion ignore in my opinion. Its a stat that raises hit primary...If anything an auto ignore skill that scales of a purely offensive skill has less rights to have it if anything, so that logi is kinda backwards.

I agree though that there are massively deeper problems with the game at the moment, but those have been plenty adressed in other threads.

[Senna]

Explosion has a cooldown. It is not 'spammable'.

Firebird is going to hit the dodgie anyway provided they're not blind.

Blind needs a fix. Evade needs to be reworked again.

You aint even wrong. It needs a rework to even fit the current system, it and half the stuff in the game.

[Lolzytripd]

Ghetto fix time.

After being hit with an "ignores evasion" move, just like KD immunity, we get a 3 turn buff that expires on the next move that would ignore evasion, granting immunity to its ignore until spent.

[Snake]

I don't like it. These evade-ignoring techniques all have drawbacks and build ups, it's only a few that stand out as 'too easy', such as Icicle Spear, Falcon Strike and Explosion that completely dominate due to how you have no huge momentum drawbacks/their bonus effects and damage are asinine.

For one, I'd take the reigns in another direction. Just use Setting Sun as an example. It's not something spammable. It takes build up. It takes positioning. It takes a lot of factors for it to work. And it also 'doesn't make sense to dodge a literal setting nuke from the sky down'. Why can't these three have same conditions?

Explosion could cost 6M.
Icicle Spear could lose its evade-ignoring properties if the spear travels farther than 3 tiles.
Falcon Strike could be changed from 'ignores Evasion' to 'ignores Glancing Blows' and gets a +25 Hit bonus at max rank.

Easy fixes.

[Balor]

Grandupper is 34FP. With most of it's damage and utility coming at 8 schwarz. I also believe it only ignores evasion at 8 schwarz as well. Of which it consumes all your stacks.

Personally I think that skill is fine as it is, if not weak overall.