[sadbot]

I was always closer to 70 and 80 than I was to 60, even at my lowest point of lightning attack in the battle. That's at least a full 20 more damage per hit considering the way Thunder Steps scales. And that's on the lower end of how much higher than 60 the numbers get.

I'm not all that surprised to see that my rough and somewhat assumption based calculations in my example were a bit off. It's good to see that you do need the higher end of elemental attack to achieve the kind of numbers stated in said examples. However, I disagree entirely that dance skill scaling is only 'a little high', and that it's somehow okay if you compare it's damage against multiple targets to that of the average aoe. It has the option of going all in on one person which does absolutely nutty damage, more than double what most any other build can achieve with the average 3m attack, so it's unfair to make that comparison. These are single target attacks that sometimes can or must split their damage between multiple targets, and should be balanced as such. They do a little more damage to single targets than most builds can achieve without even relying on weapon scaling, and more than double what most can achieve with full tempo and crits.


On the subject of immobilize and dancer's counters to it I also thinks that it's fine, technically speaking. I don't think that it's too strong since the rest beat nerf, but I think that it's an overflowing issue with the crazy damage numbers. Dancer's drop people so fast that one immobilize cure and a 3 round immunity along with it is all the time they need to never be immobilized in most cases. The immobilize/curing situation is most likely perfectly fine if this is handled. I do agree with Trex's points on dancer being kind of feast or famine with the immobilize situation vs crazy damage though, but I think that they should have better coverage for these effects that completely shut them down rather than using its current state to justify the insane damage numbers. Make dance hour cure frozen too. I also like the idea of dance hour getting a reduced cooldown based on the amount of burnt tempo, meaning it'll pretty much be ready again by the time their immunity wears off if they can fully stack tempo in between.

Also gonna have to pass on the san scaling idea. As bat mentioned, different races get vastly different additional benefits from san, making it a balancing nightmare to make it something of a focused stat that a class has heavy synergy with.

Side note also for Shujin's point on what I said about the passive +6 san. It is the only one of its kind in that it's in the base class, making it much easier to pick up as base classes rarely stretch you as thin on skill points as promotions.

[Miller]

I think the ceiling for dances are way way too high for how crazy dances end up being with Dancer personally.

If the dances were to get nerfed, I'd like them to get base damage bonuses while reducing the overall elemental scaling. I believe this was suggested in a previous thread by someone, but I found it to be personally a great idea to keep the ceiling lowered but having actual numbers wouldn't fall particularly short of someone with a standard spread to prevent ridiculous stacking of elemental attack, impure element or not.

That and I think the other dancer skills should get a touch more love, curtain call (if I recall the name right) in particular is extremely underwhelming and some of the others don't feel like worthy options compared to using your base class dances ad infinitum.

That and tempo should encourage you to use more of your other options, it'd be neat if tempo required you to use other dance skills / repeat action dances wouldn't generate tempo.

[Snake]

Abababa what am I smoking-

Anyway, I like Miller's bottom line idea, that'll be cool for both limiting Tempo build up through spamming one thing over and over. It won't fix the root problems with that mechanic (because let's be frank, Tempo is everything Boxer wishes Schwarz Sturm was).

[WaifuApple]

I'd personally rather the playstyle of dancer not be changed in that way. That's not a change it needs, and you'd predominantly just see people swapping between ice slide and thunder steps anyway, because other dancer moves just do not have the same flexible movement that makes those two appealing. Wind Pirouette and Quaking Tap don't move you at all, and both Skating Spin and Fire Dance are just incredibly basic extendable straight lines that don't hold any style to them whatsoever.

[Snake]

Maybe classify them as 'Line', 'Standing' and 'Selectable' and only one at once grants the effects of Tempo then? You gotta form a rhythm and all that mamba jamba.

Or even better. Each move only grants Tempo once, but Tempo no longer gets reduced by using other techniques.

[WaifuApple]

I'd just rather we made the middling moves feel good to use, rather than force people to stop using the fun, fluid ones as part of a class gimmick. Give fire dance a more interesting movement style, since you're building a stat that isn't optimal for the class, really. Increase Wind Pirouette's scaling or even just give it some blowback on enemies it hits, to make it not just a smaller, randomer, wind atk scaling quaking tap that may have a minor chance to inflict confusion if you take the infliction skill. Do like... anything with Curtain Call, and idk, maybe make skating spin do on hits as the one dancer move that uses your weapon?

Don't revolve dancer around forcing people to use skills because good ones are being used. Sure, maybe it will balance it, but it will sure as hell come at cost to how fun it feels to use as a class. Sure, right now it is ice slide and thunder steps, but those two moves alone are REALLY fun to use, not even because of high damage, but because they're reliable skills that move in fun ways.

In fact, in an edit, as a dancer main-class, I'll go over why I do or don't use certain moves:

The ones I don't really use:

- Fire Dance. I'm more of a mage build, so I don't really need to build strength to survive, and even if I did... fire dance is just a fire scaling extendable line. I could use any scaling line move and get more hit out of it, and likely be using the same stats as fire dance because STR goes into so many weapons, so fire dance really just brings nothing interesting for a STR build to the table.

- Wind Pirouette. It's a CEL scaling move that in battle usually requires to go in closer than I'd like. The chances of me being a dodge build who starts in range for wind pirouette, and hasn't eaten a whole load of unnecessary damage in doing so are extremely low, especially when dancer has a move that can poke in, and poke out, in thunder steps. A lot of the time, it's not even worth going in with it, either, because that requires you end your turn in danger range. Which again, as an evade build, will just get me killed. It can be situationally useful when a low inflict, high AoE person is on the field, but even then, that confusion is still a gamble and I'm likely just gone by the next turn, so it has to absolutely be worth it.

- Quaking Tap. I'm not a defense build. It's a simple attack that confirms a hit on at least three different people, and is still pretty good on the range, so I'd like to believe it's still alright. Just a matter of not fitting the statline.

Skating Spin. It just isn't that strong, really. It's just another straight line SWA move with random aspects to it. Might be useful paired with a class that is actively using a good SWA weapon, since it's nice for hit, but it is just boring and mediocre.

Curtain Call. It's just underwhelming. Everyone knows this.

Ones I do use:

Ice Slide. Skill is mandatory, and a dancer knows this well, since without weapon hit to factor in, they need all the skill they can get. That makes it very simple to be kitted for. It's also falcon strike targeting, so it is VERY easy to aim. You're not restricted to four directions, so you can venture out towards your opponent a little more without having to reposition yourself in roughly in line with them, first.

Thunder Steps. My main meat, as a lighting build. It has many qualities. Damage is significant, and you can use it strategically. Go all in with all your damage, or poke with one and put some distance afterwards. For an evade build, it's a line of attack you can do in half measures, while still feeling relatively safe space wise at the end of a turn.

Double Dance. It's just cool, honestly. The ability to make an ally do a basic attack on all four sides, or even a charmed enemy... that's just cool. I care not for whether thunder steps or ice slide are more damaging in the situation. The point is that this move is fun to use, and interesting, and I find myself wanting to use it even if not optimal, just because I can. Just because it's there. I also have rose throw because maybe someday I'll be able to rose throw into double dance and it'll be, like the coolest thing.

Idol Steps - It's a heal, basically. Still significant even if you're not building light attack. Anyone who has some room to manouver distance wise will find it easy to use for refreshing themselves in battle. It also comes with charm, so hey... double dance with ENEMIES!

[Krath]

Honestly I'm all for Miller's idea of toning down the ceiling, and I also agree with making the lesser used dances feel better to use. Ice Slide and Thunder Steps really are miles ahead of the rest, and Quaking Tap was only busted before because the range and scaling was so high.

If you want Fire Dance to have an interesting gimmick that makes it feel decent to use, my vote is to make it keep the 1-3 line range but also make traveling over Cinder tiles with it 'free', basically a fire version of Verglas' Ice Skate, so it's usable normally but you can also theoretically dash across an entire field if there's enough fire everywhere. Then you can do funny gimmick combos like Blazing Shinken -> Fire Dancing along the line and dashing past your target while doing damage, or have synergy with allies who vomit cinders everywhere.

Wind Pirouette needs...something. That knockback idea maybe, or possibly more range. Or both. Kinda messed up that the one that evade builds scale off of is also the one that doesn't move you at all. Not sure what I'd really do for it, though. Curtain Call absolutely needs more oomph to be worth using ever, especially for a damage type so commonly resisted as Dark, and Skating Spin applying on-hit effects honestly does sound like a pretty good idea for making it actually worth using. Honestly while I'm on the subject, I wouldn't mind Rose Toss only being 1M (and being balanced for such) so that doing its purpose of dramatically triggering One-Two Step with it is actually possible, but I'm digressing from the original point of nerfing them.

Point is, yeah, Dancers indeed do some whack damage and I agree with the concept of toning down elemental scaling while increasing base damage numbers. I don't think they actually need that much in the way of nerfing beyond numbies going down to not instantly blow most other 3M options out of the water, though, and in return for the base Bard dances getting balanced out, I'd like to see the actual Dancer dances become worth it to use other than just Idol Step.