[FaeLenx]

Yeah, not sure how a tepid elemental damage spec is better than burn and silence.

[Miller]

wtf how?

50% Fire/Water ATK on hit would translate to much more damage per turn on a weapon set with built in hanging to their rear that also usually uses a class combo with twin dance attached to it. Burn only shreds off around 7~8 DEF (which is roughly around 7.2% DR at most, sometimes less due to other damage reductions or diminishing stat returns.) which in a vacuum assuming a raw value of 300 for our damage would equate to 21 damage per attack give or take.~ 

With minimal investment, almost any player will have around 40 water attack with some talent point investment and while a fair amount wouldn't have the most fire attack, let's assume a super lowball of 20; you'll still end up with a raw value of 30 damage per attack (a gain of 9, roughly) at the absolute minimum of investment for these sort of builds. While still less, the relatively low values of these elemental attacks could be pumped up easily to let's say... 50 each? Which would be a net positive of 29 damage per attack. 

Now you also need to factor in the fact that this is also the class that has easy access to impure element, a source of +1~60 fire attack which also happens to be the easiest impure element condition to fulfill by a landslide; turning that value of 50 fire atk into 110, which would be a net positive of 59 damage per attack. This leads to +103 damage ~ 162 damage per round compared to burn, taking the on round damage into account. (Almost usually the former, taking skyburn into account)


As for the daggers themselves...?
The burn can be exchanged for a lingering damage (fire) instead of burn with the same level and I think a slight range decrease would do just fine for the time being. (imo)

addendum: im a dummy and forgor it was all bonus def, shhh

[FaeLenx]

That's a lot of fun math but it kinda misses how other daggers do the same sorts of scalings as on-hits rather than on-crits. Also, requiring a lot of building into elemental damage would detract from the current builds' that make use of the weapons pretty heavily. None of this is 'easy' or 'minimal investment.' Every point tends to matter in the end. Every item slot too.

Removing the burn and silence for 50% elem on crits would be a hefty nerf. It would be a rather boring one as well. It wouldn't be OP. I couldn't reasonably believe that anyone arguing that it would be OP to be arguing in good faith.

[Miller]

That's a lot of fun math but it kinda misses how other daggers do the same sorts of scalings as on-hits rather than on-crits. Also, requiring a lot of building into elemental damage would detract from the current builds' that make use of the weapons pretty heavily. None of this is 'easy' or 'minimal investment.' Every point tends to matter in the end. Every item slot too.

Removing the burn and silence for 50% elem on crits would be a hefty nerf. It would be a rather boring one as well. It wouldn't be OP. I couldn't reasonably believe that anyone arguing that it would be OP to be arguing in good faith.

oops, I missed the fact that kunai specifically mentioned on crit.

I still think that the investment mentioned except for the fire attack bit wasn't that high and having teleport+on hits on your attack would be extremely loaded but I digress.

[Rendar]

It'd make the fan-daggers look like chump change to have on-crit 50% elemental...

Especially because these daggers, specifically, have enough base Power to ignore Akmedis' entire thing. While the others do not.

[caliaca]

Fan daggers would still be more consistent and better damage for being off stats Dagger users actually like building and being on hit instead of on crit.

[Snake]

Yeah, that's the point I made and why I'm confused. This would be "on critical" effect and all.

Both Burn and Silence are extremely crippling, and the reason why this weapon got Muddle to begin with was how PvE monsters could just slurp the fire-water damage at times due to how the pair forced the damages to be changed to Fire and Water.

Another idea is making this effect only happen after a first attack. So for example:
- Hikage attack. (Tsukikage On-Crit effect is now available.)
- Tsukikage attack. (Bonus Water damage)

- Tsukikage attack. (Hikage On-Crit ready.)
- Hikage attack. (Bonus Fire damage)

This way it slows down the shmoney, if this is such a huge worry.

Because if we whine so much about this, don't forget we have a certain scaling tag that makes this completely worthless, and that Dev can very much just slap in and call a day. (Tool tag)

[firehawk11]

Yeah but do you really want that Tool Tag to be added. Look the more that going on the more obvious we need a HARD look at all weapons in the game, some are garbage and others are, well this, too good but weren't they always good? If they get nerfed then you'll just see people running the second best dagger which could just be as silly?

[FaeLenx]

I don't think it really needs a nerf. It'll just be a small bit before people are running the perfect counters to these sorts of builds more often. And then people will complain about VA getting gutted again. There weren't any huge buffs to any of this before people started to notice it was strong. Just a few people who knew what they were doing started to use it. It's not the build that does the most damage. It's not the build that has the most utility while doing the most damage. It's just a really okay build that locks out a few types of builds that are specifically weak to it.

[sadbot]

Nobody has quite hit the nail on the head with my feelings for these abominations as they are now, so I figure it’s about time I weigh in on things considering I’ve used the things on and off since day one (and am apparently known for such???).

Hayabusa set has always been a powerhouse that‘s held back by their hit, as has always been the way with daggers even before gr2. The major turning point for them wasn’t mundane (though that was one of several indirect buffs) but the scaling change to guile along with throwing daggers. This turned their damage potential up to 11 along with their easy butt stabs that the on hit teleport brings, while making it very difficult to play the range game with them in any capacity due to their now 7 range (melee weapon btw). Mundane was just a cherry on top in terms of damage, allowing the combination of massive damage and inescapable range plus teleport to turn them into a big number blender. Non evade builds will almost universally find themselves face down looking at certain defeat by their 2nd or even 1st turn, half of which has already been stolen by cutthroat’s knockdown. Oh, you're a doom wall with the beef to take it for a few turns, or a magic user with some big numbers or utility to fight back? Throw those guaranteed (why?????) silence and burn inflictions on top, and any fleeting chance of survival you had just evaporated.

My personal take on balancing them out a bit is tackling these 3 major issues:

1. Too much damage
   
2. Too much range
   
3. Guaranteed silence and burn (seriously why???)
   

I think the damage issue should be tackled on rogue and VA’s side, as the only thing hayabusa has on other daggers is easy butt stabs and burns and the extra damage that brings. With guile scaling being the standard for daggers now, giving an already big crit focused weapon type things like +25% extra crit damage pushes them too far.

The range issue can be solved by removing the bonus range of the set, or swapping it out for some form of throwing daggers synergy without leaving them at 7 range. It’s simply too much for a melee weapon that wants to butt stab people for this much damage.

The guaranteed silence and burn should be changed for some other on hits, or at the very least made infliction based as these builds don’t tend to have both will and skill for crazy inflict chance. Even then, they should probably maintain the immunity that’s tacked on afterwards as even an infliction based on hit silence + burn is still super powerful. Like seriously for real who thought no inflict check burn and silence on hit was ok.

To summarise, this would leave the set with less damage in some form or fashion, 4 range without the set bonus + throwing daggers while keeping the teleport, and the burn and silence removed for something else or at the very least made infliction based. I think these changes will allow the set to keep its quite interesting unique and powerful identity, while removing their new identity as a damage blender that leaves most face down in the dirt and clinging to life before their first turn. They should maintain a strong match up vs tanks but ‘just build evade’ with the alternative being instantaneous death is not really okay.

I still have ptsd from Filia.

Edit - I forgor that they also get muddle, so between fire/water, pierce or slash with special attack they also get to completely ignore all attempts to resist their damage type to mess up their triple action momentum. Niche enough that it’s not really a major problem, but certainly a cherry on top of this blender.