[Miller]

If anyone mentions Black Water Vials as an actual legitimate anti-critical evade tool, they've never used it before. It requires you to be in range, have 3m available and it essentially only lasts until the next turn when they move out of it. Not to mention the crafting cost of these things is an absolute annoyance to keep in line. So not only is it useless against anyone with critical evade that has a shred of mobility, (not to mention certain set ups are downright immune to Black Water) it also only lasts until the next turn effectively. Which can be great in teamfights, but it's generally not going to make a difference. This is even before considering the new star graphs.

I seriously implore people to understand the main problem of critical vs critical evade. Percentages are deceptive, reducing 50% chance to a 25% chance may seem like only '25%' of a difference but if you graph it or convert it into a proper fraction; you're taking 50% less critical hits on average. The argument of 'well, it wasn't a problem before' is a strawman, this has always been a symptom of an underlying problem with the critical race. You don't just ignore the symptom when it does become a problem.

There needs to be a rework that can retain the fun aspect of Critting while reducing the 'do or die' aspect of the mechanic and the suggestion of CEvade being converted to critical damage reduction is currently the solution I find most favorable.

[Ray2064]

....

I understand the need to consistently crit your target and missing important crits hurts, but that approach isn't ideal. It's just how RNG works sometimes.

Also, this is less about being able to land critical hits consistently, and more about being able to crit...period? I think you kind of underestimate the numbers CEvade can get to. This is less about 'Oh no, I have a 40% chance to crit', and moreso 'Oh, I guess I don't get to play for this fight'. This is about some matchups being borderline unwinnable unless your opponent just stops playing.

Due to the crit formula working as a simple difference between CEvade and Crit Rate, you can easily get into situations where you have something like a 110 crit weapon (albeit lower end, yet a plateau for a fair share of weapons) and face someone with something like roughly 100 crit evade (Something that's rather easy to accomplish with something like a FAI Class + Boneheart, god forbid you stack more CEvade buffs past that point.)

Crit Evade is an entire stat that in itself neuters an entire archetype bar a few exceptions, that has to make something like a thirdif not half of the playerbase. 

The argument of simply switching up your strategy to match doesn't really work either since a critter tends to not have that many reliable sources of damage outside of, well, crits, and the invested points in said stats that'd make critting reliable in the first place means they typically don't have the defensive stats/FP to keep it up, builds who carry CEvade also typically have consequent means of sustain that a critter wouldn't have.

Something like a 115 Crit Ghost/BK can't exactly Reaper Scythe/Ghastly strike their way to victory against a Solblader, Curate, Summoner, Ranger, Black Knight, etc. Sure, the game is a rock-paper-scissor, but it's never quite as extreme as crit's case.

It being limited or reworked in some way is probably the way to go

[Sawrock]

There's a reason I always use Ring of Thorns+ on every crit build.

[zericosmic]

Maybe it's just me but I don't like the idea of the increasing amount RNG is becoming more and more important in PvP, and every win more or less culiminating in "could've rolled better". I'd rather that crit evade would just consistently lower the damage done, without having to rely on RNG dice rolls of either making you feel like shit, or the opposing player, and if it the damage is too high or too small, it can be adjusted from there on.. This is just turning fights in to a 50/50, where you could just watch people take the same exact actions every fight and the outcome would come out different because one rolled better, but this awesome mode is already unlocked by just pressing the dice button on your screen.

I'm sure this meta will eventually pass, and when enough time passes crit will get a tool to boost crit and make Cevade feel like shit, and much like how boneheart is being used now, it will just end up being easily quick swappable and carried around by every critter. I find that a consistent option that always does what it says on the tin more favorable.

[Poruku]

I feel like crit can't possibly be balanced as long as triple action exists. The damage of the actual crits is certainly not the worst part

[Miller]

Crit or any system with several elements at play will never be truly balanced.

It's just a matter of balancing 'fun' and fairness. I would rather have nothing change if it meant losing the third action.

This isn't to say I think crit evade = lower crit damage is the perfect solution. Just that I think CEvade in its current state is not fun in the slightest.

[Trexmaster]

TL;DR I believe Critical should have more active, class agnostic tools to deal with C.Evade rather than altering C.Evade into DR. That way Critical builds can play their favorite class combo but still get access to support to help them achieve reasonable Critical percentages.

The major difference between C.Evade and Evade is that Evade has plenty of ways to entirely bypass it, whereas C.Evade just has the one at the moment (Desperado Striker).

Otherwise they're similar in that if you cannot surmount them your build is dead in the water. This dynamic makes it very unfun when so few builds actually have the ability to function when walled by either.

As time goes by I have noticed rather than getting greater build diversity and more options to play with, we get less and less, at least when it comes to what performs the best/is competitive. It is rare when we get something new that isn't demanded to be taken away from us when it performs well.

To the point of the topic, as I broke down a little over a year ago, while Critical possesses a select few massive buffs they're either situational (Bloody Karma/Volley Formation) or very short (Veil Off). Most of the time the highest amount of Critical you can reasonably muster in combat is going to be around 40-50~. It's a similar conundrum to what Evade deals with except Critical has not received any class agnostic support until Deadly Shades over the past few years.

Thus you're either stuck only having 20-30~ Critical you can get extra or you're forced to play the select few combinations that can stack enough Critical to reliably get past the higher end of C.Evade in an environment that now heavily encourages FAI builds.

I hope for build freedom for all archetypes. It's why it's difficult for me to sign off on a solution to the current Critical v C.evade problem in good faith. Converting it into DR is about as good as it gets without any massive overhauls but as mentioned Fleur exists to ruin everything for everyone as usual on top of the aforementioned On Crit effects. It'd be like if Evade got converted into DR and everyone got to hit each other automatically...oh wait that was just GR1. Anyway.

One thing that came to mind is potentially changing Dark Water Vials into applying a status effect that treats the afflicted as being on Dark Water on top of allowing them to be reused from the same item slot. Even this isn't a perfect solution of course as this would have farther reaching ramifications to anyone who isn't a Solblader, but I believe it's a good example of the kind of tools Critical builds should have to help them fight against C.Evade more actively without having to be a specific class combination to have a chance. C.Evade already has Fulgurite and technically Tetraite if the fight is less than 4-5 rounds. Magic stones were a mistake.

[Autumn]

The argument of 'well, it wasn't a problem before' is a strawman, this has always been a symptom of an underlying problem with the critical race. You don't just ignore the symptom when it does become a problem.

Yeah I mostly disagree with anyone who might say that "It wasn't a problem before" because it totally was strong back then too, I know of myself and a few others who would opt into Crit Evade as their secondary defensive buffer and it was damn effective at that job, people have been saying that Boneheart is better than Giant Gene for as long as I can remember GR1 being around.

It was very good even before, comparable to every other option, but every other option was nerfed and tanks keep getting stripped of what makes them good every update.

And even still with that thought, I don't think Crit Evade is very healthy either, I don't think Critting is very well balanced either, given the state of most weapons vs Axes and Daggers lol.

[Caboozles]

I'd actually not rather

TL;DR I believe Critical should have more active, class agnostic tools to deal with C.Evade rather than altering C.Evade into DR. That way Critical builds can play their favorite class combo but still get access to support to help them achieve reasonable Critical percentages.

I'd actually rather this not be the case, because I'm a strong advocate of increasing survivability.

I'm aware this is a combination of Attune Grudge, but Filia was able to hit me with an unbuffed Dancing Shiv for 700 damage.
Crit damage currently is feast or famine, but if we're decreasing the chance of famine, we need to impact the ability to feast too.

Giving people the opportunity to not be affected by RNG just makes it rocket tag.
And I hate rocket tag.

[Trexmaster]

I'd actually rather this not be the case, because I'm a strong advocate of increasing survivability.

I'm aware this is a combination of Attune Grudge, but Filia was able to hit me with an unbuffed Dancing Shiv for 700 damage.
Crit damage currently is feast or famine, but if we're decreasing the chance of famine, we need to impact the ability to feast too.

Giving people the opportunity to not be affected by RNG just makes it rocket tag.
And I hate rocket tag.

Ideally C.Evade would be given equal opportunities in such a reality, yes. It's the conundrum of Hit V Evade except confirming a crit tends to kill someone way faster.

With how the system is currently built it's difficult to give any concessions without comprising one side of it, all we can do bar sweeping changes is level the playing field so that both parties have access to the tools necessary to function, whether it's hit/evade or critical/c.evade.

Success for one party shouldn't mean the other is either immediately dead or cannot do anything, but that's where we're presently at.