[Poruku]

Druid summons are currently the only summon type with no significant cost associated with them, and they're also very powerful.

- Roughly as strong as the best youkai, but without costing fp to upkeep. (And much better than most non-ascended youkai)
- Roughly as powerful if not stronger than ruler pieces. Similar to the queen if we omit the rose trap. But without costing any energy to function or geomaterial to create! Ruler's minions cost insane amounts of resources and momentum, while druid can accomplish often more with less.
- Stronger than engineer bots in terms of power, and they cost a fraction of the fp. 50 fp for a summon is a significant cost that makes it balanced.
- Arguably comparable to a shine knight in power, without needing an invocation.

Where is the drawback? The balance? You can even pull one out at battle start! It would be nice if they commanded a certain playstyle rather than being free. Currently, you can play something like a ghost/druid and simply have a random powerful summon out on top of your already powerful character. This just feels wrong!

The idea of fighting alongside your animal friend as a martial character is very cool. However, in the case of bonder for instance, there is a prohibitive FP cost associated with having an ascended youkai out. Druid just needs to have some kind of mechanic or drawback to make it feel in line

[Rendar]

In the case of Bonder, you are also placing a VERY high priority target on the field, because if that Youkai dies. You lose access to about 80% of your class (No more Fight As One. Can't even install it)

Druid summons are absolutely insane in terms of strength and raw survivability. To the point that when I was losing my 2vTier3 Goblin fight, I just threw out every summon I could to act as meat shields until We Just Won due to sheer attrition.

I'm not saying Druid Pets need a huge nerf, but they are feeling a little goated atm.

[Flun]

The fact a wolf does more damage than a knight to more things with zero upkeep on the class with healing makes me feel like eating a chess set

[Autumn]

Is this a problem with druid or with the other summoners, cause quite frankly the druid summons feel very satisfying and are very well designed, while the others just simply do not without serious juice. Take an Ascended Suzaku vs every other youkai.

This is not a problem with druid, I do not mind fighting them at all and their up front 25 FP cost is pretty standard for abilities of this strength.

This seems like a salt thread and doesn't actually ask if this makes Druid unbalanced, cause this class is very balanced overall and is a welcome addition to the game, I have very little issues fighting it and I feel like the summons make a sizeable impact on a battle as they should. I do feel like the satisfaction of these summons should be prioritized for the user, not whoever is facing them, they're killable and they all have different roles, the only one that is vaguely unbalanced is the Viper given that it can put a -32 evade debuff on an enemy, and that's a utility outlier dictated solely by numbers.

If you remove double turning I feel like a lot of grievances are solved with the animals, as has been the case for every single summon in history, this isn't a druid issue.

[Collector]

rulers when another class has summons that aren't awful

[Poruku]

1: The druid summons feel very satisfying and are very well designed, while the others just simply do not without serious juice. Take an Ascended Suzaku vs every other youkai.

2: This is not a problem with druid, I do not mind fighting them at all and their up front 25 FP cost is pretty standard for abilities of this strength.

3: This seems like a salt thread and doesn't actually ask if this makes Druid unbalanced, cause this class is very balanced overall and is a welcome addition to the game.

4: If you remove double turning I feel like a lot of grievances are solved with the animals, as has been the case for every single summon in history, this isn't a druid issue.

1: I can agree with this sentiment in principle. Many summons in the game don't necessarily feel like they're very satisfying. But I would argue that personally when I summon a druid animal, I immediately feel bad because it feels too easy. I'm someone who loves to play Ruler. I think Ruler summons suck due to the heavy costs, but because of that, it feels rewarding and fair to have those minions out. I think Druid summons can remain satisfying without being unbalanced.

Non-druid summons at the moment feel kind of bad to play because Druid exists. I think there's a decent amount of good youkai currently in the game. You can have great success as a summoner. The engineer bots are also very good, but they need to be used intelligently for their utility powers. The other more niche summons can also be solid. Shine knight builds are powerful when built well. Ruler sucks, but I enjoy it. 

I think it's sometimes understated how powerful it is to have extra units on your side in a game like SL2. It's a tactical RPG, where efficient use of momentum is paramount. Having 7 more momentum on your side each turn is a swing in power that is hard to estimate. Most summon classes tend to be balanced around that concept, especially Ruler. Ruler is a class that respects the power of momentum. To have these summons act, you must use your momentum. This makes perfect sense. If the summons were stronger, and the class more practical to play in general, it would be a perfect example of a "balanced" minion user. 

The idea that you can just summon guys and have them fight for you is interesting, and it can be fun. But striking a balance there is very difficult. If you're not investing much resources or momentum into the summons, then they should be weak in terms of total damage / utility. Because summons are an extension of your character's power, all of your summons' actions are your actions when it comes to balance. Imagine a class that allows you to make 2 more attacks (although weaker) each turn. That's what druid is. Then imagine you can pay 3 momentum to get 2 extra attacks for the rest of the fight, unless the enemy breaks a 500 hp shield.

On top of that, druid has wildshape powers, and some decent spells, that allow an otherwise powerful build to be used in conjunction with the summons. You can be a mage with heals, tossing out aoe damage, or you can be a powerful crit build with a variety of useful offensive skills. This is all in the same class. Ghost/Druid? You're one of the best crit builds, on top of having the summons. Priest/Druid? You're one of the best healers, on top of having the best summons! Evoker/Druid? Big spell damage, AND summons. Etc. The addition of all these factors is what makes Druid truly oppressive when it's played well. It's a large amount of free power that can be part of any other build.

2: It's not standard for this kind of power; other summons have various drawbacks and costs that are greater.

3: This is definitely a Druid thing. I'm not making a salt thread. I've faced druids in pvp, but I'm saying this as someone who is playing druid as well.

I don't think Druid is well balanced. I think it's too strong specifically because of the summons. The wildshapes are quite good, but the summons are where it's busted. As a druid, you have multiple buttons that instantaneously summon a new ally on your team that can act independently and carry its own weight regardless of what you do. This omnipotence is the issue, you can even resummon them later with cooldown as the only limiter. And I think many of its tools, such as the plants, could stand to be improved. It's a class that needs some work in both ways.

Something that feels seriously wrong is when you can just spam summon units until you win. What are they gonna do when you spawn 4 fully functional dudes, and there's still the main guy to fight at the same time? How can anyone normal win that battle?

4: Double turning is a problem, especially the 1v1 thing where the summoner procs diehard and gets to play first. Druid is still a problem independent of that, however.

[Raigen.Convict]

My first thought is to make the summons main class only. At this point i got no other ideas as i agree with Autumn, they're fun and strong and more fun to use with a strong other class in combination with them and flat out fulfills Bonders fantasy BETTER than Bonder!

[Flun]

I feel the power of the druid summons can be alright if they had a harsher cost, but as of now they are the strongest summon with the smallest price.

Youkai and engineer bots have heavy upkeep and upfront fp costs respectively

Priest and ruler have heavy momentum sinks to get their good units

Animals are most comparable to engineer bots due to their long cooldown on death and decently high fp cost, but they’re still the cheapest out of all summons to get, on a class with multiple healing moves and and two fp regen buttons, thats my personal gripe with druid, the player doesnt feel enough detriment to summon them for their power.

[Collector]

1: The druid summons feel very satisfying and are very well designed, while the others just simply do not without serious juice. Take an Ascended Suzaku vs every other youkai.

2: This is not a problem with druid, I do not mind fighting them at all and their up front 25 FP cost is pretty standard for abilities of this strength.

3: This seems like a salt thread and doesn't actually ask if this makes Druid unbalanced, cause this class is very balanced overall and is a welcome addition to the game.

4: If you remove double turning I feel like a lot of grievances are solved with the animals, as has been the case for every single summon in history, this isn't a druid issue.

1: I can agree with this sentiment in principle. Many summons in the game don't necessarily feel like they're very satisfying. But I would argue that personally when I summon a druid animal, I immediately feel bad because it feels too easy. I'm someone who loves to play Ruler. I think Ruler summons suck due to the heavy costs, but because of that, it feels rewarding and fair to have those minions out. I think Druid summons can remain satisfying without being unbalanced.

Non-druid summons at the moment feel kind of bad to play because Druid exists. I think there's a decent amount of good youkai currently in the game. You can have great success as a summoner. The engineer bots are also very good, but they need to be used intelligently for their utility powers. The other more niche summons can also be solid. Shine knight builds are powerful when built well. Ruler sucks, but I enjoy it. 

I think it's sometimes understated how powerful it is to have extra units on your side in a game like SL2. It's a tactical RPG, where efficient use of momentum is paramount. Having 7 more momentum on your side each turn is a swing in power that is hard to estimate. Most summon classes tend to be balanced around that concept, especially Ruler. Ruler is a class that respects the power of momentum. To have these summons act, you must use your momentum. This makes perfect sense. If the summons were stronger, and the class more practical to play in general, it would be a perfect example of a "balanced" minion user. 

The idea that you can just summon guys and have them fight for you is interesting, and it can be fun. But striking a balance there is very difficult. If you're not investing much resources or momentum into the summons, then they should be weak in terms of total damage / utility. Because summons are an extension of your character's power, all of your summons' actions are your actions when it comes to balance. Imagine a class that allows you to make 2 more attacks (although weaker) each turn. That's what druid is. Then imagine you can pay 3 momentum to get 2 extra attacks for the rest of the fight, unless the enemy breaks a 500 hp shield.

On top of that, druid has wildshape powers, and some decent spells, that allow an otherwise powerful build to be used in conjunction with the summons. You can be a mage with heals, tossing out aoe damage, or you can be a powerful crit build with a variety of useful offensive skills. This is all in the same class. Ghost/Druid? You're one of the best crit builds, on top of having the summons. Priest/Druid? You're one of the best healers, on top of having the best summons! Evoker/Druid? Big spell damage, AND summons. Etc. The addition of all these factors is what makes Druid truly oppressive when it's played well. It's a large amount of free power that can be part of any other build.

2: It's not standard for this kind of power; other summons have various drawbacks and costs that are greater.

3: This is definitely a Druid thing. I'm not making a salt thread. I've faced druids in pvp, but I'm saying this as someone who is playing druid as well.

I don't think Druid is well balanced. I think it's too strong specifically because of the summons. The wildshapes are quite good, but the summons are where it's busted. As a druid, you have multiple buttons that instantaneously summon a new ally on your team that can act independently and carry its own weight regardless of what you do. This omnipotence is the issue, you can even resummon them later with cooldown as the only limiter. And I think many of its tools, such as the plants, could stand to be improved. It's a class that needs some work in both ways.

Something that feels seriously wrong is when you can just spam summon units until you win. What are they gonna do when you spawn 4 fully functional dudes, and there's still the main guy to fight at the same time? How can anyone normal win that battle?

4: Double turning is a problem, especially the 1v1 thing where the summoner procs diehard and gets to play first. Druid is still a problem independent of that, however.

Going to tackle some specific points here.

Non-druid summons at the moment feel kind of bad to play because Druid exists. I think there's a decent amount of good youkai currently in the game. You can have great success as a summoner. The engineer bots are also very good, but they need to be used intelligently for their utility powers. The other more niche summons can also be solid. Shine knight builds are powerful when built well. Ruler sucks, but I enjoy it.

You admit here that every summoner minus Ruler has a use case to be 'good' or find success with, and I agree with that, so I don't really understand the sentiment of 'Non-druid summoners feel bad to play because Druid exists'. Ruler is just bad.

Having 7 more momentum on your side each turn is a swing in power that is hard to estimate.

What? No, it's not. What a summon is going to do with its momentum is very easy to quantify because of their tiny skill pools; if someone deploys a Metalaegis, you know what they're going to do with it. Same with a wolf or bear.

Ruler is a class that respects the power of momentum. To have these summons act, you must use your momentum. This makes perfect sense. If the summons were stronger, and the class more practical to play in general, it would be a perfect example of a "balanced" minion user. 

Every summon other than Ruler respects the strength of your momentum, rather than bogging down your turns with actions to justify the momentum you spent getting it out; the sunk-cost fallacy of spending 6m to keep your rook going instead of summoning a Kerberos for 3m is awful on your effectiveness. Our opinions on balance are drastically different here, and speaking personally, I wouldn't want Druid summons bogged down to the standards of Ruler - I prefer the freedom to play with them, rather than for them. All non-Ruler summons follow this principle.

It's kind of ironic that the class named 'Ruler' is about prostrating yourself and surrendering entire turns to your summons, but I digress. 

It's not standard for this kind of power; other summons have various drawbacks and costs that are greater.

It's very standard. While Youkai upkeep costs are significant when summoning multiple, the base class comes with the means to mitigate it - doubly so with GS, though that class has seen better days. Youkai are also an entirely different ballgame with VERY powerful, specialized effects, rather than the allrounders that are Animal Companions. Druid summons don't reflect Fire, Ice, or Wind, redirect damage from you, cast Lord's Flame, or apply Grapple reliably(bear wishes it was Lilu); the prime use case for Youkai isn't swarming someone, it's targeted use in specific situations.

Engineer is an even better example. Engineer summons are 50 FP upfront and function at peak for as long as they're alive; once they're out, they're out, and all for 3m. If you pick up a scrap upon summon death, your next summon is 25 FP - the exact same as Druid - and it's cooldown is reduced. Assuming both an Engineer with Metalaegis and a Druid with Bear are picking up their totem/scrap, respectively, their re-summon is 25FP with a 3 turn cooldown. They're exactly the same in this regard, though Engineer has a higher initial investment to summon a unit with higher HP. Seems standard to me.

(Note that the CD reduction isn't mentioned in the Engineer skills anymore, though it does apply. I thought I hallucinated reducing my CDs, but it still happens, and it's still a flat -5 turns.)

This is definitely a Druid thing. I'm not making a salt thread. I've faced druids in pvp, but I'm saying this as someone who is playing druid as well.

As with the points above, this looks more like a Ruler thing, man. It's just not a good balancing stick to use.

Something that feels seriously wrong is when you can just spam summon units until you win. What are they gonna do when you spawn 4 fully functional dudes, and there's still the main guy to fight at the same time? How can anyone normal win that battle?

I haven't had any issues with any of the Druid summons since release, despite my frequent PvP; they looked middling on release, and several of my builds can outright ignore them like they do other summons. If you're struggling against summon Druids, I can try to offer you some advice:

• Black Knight, by itself, makes Bear, Hawk, and Wolf pathetic to you. After being routinely dinked for 20 damage from each hit of a summon on mine, I just learned to ignore them. Bonus points if yours is also a Glykin that ignores the low level poison on the snake, or if you're using an Axe to do things like Forced Move > Widespin. 
  
• Druid summons don't have protect effects like Metalaegis and Rook do. If you set out to damage race the summons via beeline to execute the summoner, you'll likely win handily.
  
• If you're struggling against Druids with strong heals in 1s, this is the PRIME use case for The Cross. Fulgur of Flight can't cleanse it, and if you're a basic attacker, this should give you the time to execute them if done right. Boon-abusing summoners and summon Druids are drastically weaker in teamfights, so no worries there.
  
• Druid summons have awful hit, like most summons. The only one that will hit a dodge without help is the wolf, and only at a measly 20% chance. Do your best to mitigate the horde's flanking or reduce their hit, manage the threat of Snake, and you can reliably wall them out.
  
• While Wolf and Bear aren't made of glass, Snake and Hawk are. Like with Ruler, a Hexer spewing AoE gack constantly is great at dealing with them AND their summoner.
  
• Don't stand near plants. THAT SNAKE THAT I HATE can't hurt you if you don't, barring Ranger - a class that isn't suited to summon & heal spam.
  
• Unlike players, Druid summons can't teleport everywhere. Reducing their Move with Slow, Forced Move, or similar effects can render them useless for multiple turns at a time.
  
• Interference is great and all, but Druids have a cleanse for that. Status Res check them with confuse instead.
  
• If you hate Druid summons an unhealthy amount, Beastfoe Shield applies its full effect to them. Also applies at half effectiveness to the Wild Shape Druids that aren't snakes, which are a much bigger threat to your life.
  
• Use vampiric effects or weapons to turn Druid summons into glorified juice boxes, or prime Rebound. I've seen both done at once and it's horrifying.
  

Hope this helps.