[Autumn]

I'm gonna get pretty rant-y.

Generally I agree that nerfs are rather necessary to keep the strong stuff down, I also agree that they are used quite a lot to deal with those problems, but for good reason I feel like. I don't think that saying 'We need more buffs, less nerfs!' is going to solve a lot cause I'll be honest, I've gone over this rhetoric many times and it doesn't exactly spell out one of the core issues that a solo developer balancing the game faces, its the community opinion.

Nerfs are louder, people scream for nerfs to specific things far more than they talk about buffing other things that isn't just people being nostalgic over old items they used to run that aren't good anymore because they got the axe (I'll get to that). Now, most of these things usually do deserve an axe of some sort, but I want to criticize that I think that the game is no longer what it used to be, things are FAR more balanced in the current state of SL2 now more than ever.

I believe that Dev needs to consider nerfs to be of a smaller scale from now on, we look at nerfs that hit items or skills that effectively completely kill them and could easily have their effects go down in numbers instead of be removed entirely, Hikage/Tsukikage is an example of those where it could have had the range reduced (Since throwing daggers was the issue there).

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Furthermore, I believe that the prevailing opinion that the old Evasion system being better was something that I could probably agree with from a game health standpoint, but I will also say that I am not fully confident this is the case either.

The game before GR2 wasn't nearly quite as a complex testing ground as it is now, the general player skill of the community has increased vastly, before in the old system you could run a lot of builds "Viably" because there wasn't quite as much pressure to be as scummy as possible, good players would usually win by just being better than their opponents. This has held true for most of the game's lifespan up until Korvara launched.

Evade has to be the core issue that the game faces in terms of "Viable" builds however, it is the great divider, being able to deal with John Fastman running his offense on you and fortnite dancing away at a breakneck pace has always been a defining build check since GR2 launched, before this problem was ONLY exclusive to John Cobra, and there were ways around that like blind or getting behind an opponent.

Hit sources have gotten harder, what defines how good characters are, is how close you can get to the 250-260+ hit marker, and for the most part? I believe that everyone should be able to get to that marker in their class setups, even if it takes some pretty major homogenization to get there, we can leave in the suitable exceptions like Ranger or Blessed weapons, but there are a huge number of classes in the game that need some hit touch ups, even just 5-10 extra hit.

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Lastly, everything so far I've seen that has been doomed about in this post has already been addressed to either be silly or to be an unintended side effect of the major balance changes that recently took place, or are being blown out of the water (such as Flanking suddenly being bad now?) cause the OP changes got turned into reasonable changes, getting +10-20 hit from the back while avoiding an opponent's front-facing defensives is still VERY good! Daggers were balanced around such a controversial mechanic, and I believe that they will eventually be addressed, as everything usually does get addressed at some point as long as the community stays focused on the subject.

In short:
-Nerfs are necessary for the strong things, your difference of opinion on them is another matter entirely.
-Nerfs are easier than buffs cause of the community's tendency to complain primarily about the strong stuff than talk about the weak stuff, or talk about what counter strategies are too weak.
-Game was a lot more balanced for build variety back in GR1, but nostalgia blinds us from remembering that no one felt as pressured to play meta shit as they do now.
-Please more random hit sources in classes that don't have them (I WILL MAKE A LIST IF NEEDED)

[Lolzytripd]

My 2 cents

Simplification of stats may be more beneficial than bloating them for maintaining balance

Guile was and still is a mistake and would be healthier with a penetration mechanic than crit damage

[Druby]

I will both agree and disagree with Amber's points. Addressing a few things:

I will say I very much disagree on the idea that the skill level of players has risen. SL2 is at this point about a decade old? Probably a few years older than that even, I don't recall exactly when Dev launched the game, but a decade is a good ballpark I think. And Korvara has only been out for about two or three years now? SL2 as a game has long ago been something that's been "solved", and while the game has gone through a lot of changes, each subsequent update isn't really all that hard to grasp and adapt to in terms of player knowledge once you already have the rest figured out. People were making cheesy or scummy builds, people know the benchmarks to hit for breakpoints, etc. I really don't think "skill level" is a contributing factor in this equation, cause those knowledgeable players still remain. In terms of a wider playerbase, I'd even argue skill level has dropped as there are plenty of players I run into who have no idea about Skill Tax or returning old players who have zero idea about certain class reworks and so on. But that in particular isn't a major factor in this discussion, and my point is that I feel like the skill ceiling is still roughly where it has been.

I'll agree on the point of the old pre-GR2 system being healthier for the game, and that's something I'm much more willing to stand by. My own little hill to die on. It did have its issues, don't get me wrong. Lack of a skill tax meant that it was much easier to get optimized builds that pushed extremes of damage or DR further, but it did also allow a lot more things to be viable. Not to mention, I believe it fits the idea of someone always having an option in a fight, as it's impossible to get evade-walled since you could always rely on skills to at least get hits in for you. Combine this with the removal of some of the old bigger pain points like old-Cobra, and DR from Defense and Resistance getting dropped, I think it'd be a much healthier place for the game to be in.

Admittedly, Evade was considered weaker compared to tanking due to the fact that you could almost always get at least some form of reliable damage off, and Glancing DR at the time was only 30%, combined with the fact you still got hit with statuses, but I think that's a relatively easy fix by simply upping how much DR evasion gave you, or maybe putting some consideration in shuffling around how statuses might or might not still hit you through glancing.

The current system super heavily promotes the Cold War between hit and evade, which usually just ends up with one side feeling like they can't do anything, as without enough hit you just miss forever, and without enough evade your defense investments mean almost nothing, or just being hit by evasion ignores over and over which does the same thing.

On the topic of nerfs, I believe Dev absolutely hits things too hard. I think nerfs are necessary, game balance cannot be simply achieved by ONLY buffs. That's ridiculous. But Dev's nerfs often swing too hard, or target the wrong things in my opinion, stripping away both usefulness and identity of an item. As an example would be the old Elytra nerf, removing its ability to counter KD someone if they were within one tile of you. I can understand the idea that Elytras might've been strong, but completely removing its active special effect made it feel much less like a 10 star item. It's now Spike Treads+ with a bit of blunt res. That's nowhere near as exciting as Elytras primary effect at the time, and I think the nerf there should've been directed at its other aspects rather than stripping away its identity.

Then there's the Narcus example. I will fully admit to a bias towards Narcus as it was basically my baby as the weapon I used on basically my only character on SL2 for many years. In my opinion, it was strong. A very good option, part of why I used it, but it wasn't in need of a nerf. I could understand one, but I didn't think it was in a place that required it at all. However, whatever my thoughts on that matter, Narcus basically got stripped to nothing. It's a weapon that no one at all uses anymore, and I heavily doubt Dev will ever go back to buff it again. It was already a relatively niche weapon before (being easily countered by fire res, and kite being able to cheese it out) that was very strong in a lot of match ups that didn't have easy answers to it, but now you see no one at all using it. Dev took a viable and powerful tool, and made it a dead drop now. No one is excited to find a Narcus other than maybe breaking it down for Dragon Remains, and it's just basically vendor trash. And I'd argue there are many weapons or pieces of equipment like that, which players find, and then basically toss into the garbage. Not every weapon needs to be super strong, or super powerful, but repeated nerfs to various things that hit too hard or target the wrong areas means the game is now littered with essentially dead drops. At least before the Rebellion nerfs people saw reason to use basic longswords and other one star items as SWA sticks, but now it's a dead enchant and one star items are mostly only something you use because you just made a new character.

[Snake]

Too much has been nerfed into irrelevance and then left to rot. Recent SL2 updates feel afraid of releasing anything "too strong", which leaves us with items that sound exciting on paper but are useless in practice. Especially most of the new enchants. Envenomed is the clearest example: fighting a 3,000 HP solo boss only to get a reward fit for the trash bin is just depressing.

Items and enchants should define builds, not just pad stats. Weapon development should be anchored to the game's baseline of STR, WIL, and GUI being the supposed core as "damage stats", yet GUI constantly lags behind, especially after STR's buff and Flanking's nerf pushed it even further down. STR is busted, WIL has Luminary Element and the most precious thing ever, FP. GUI gives you skill slots and... a chance to deal more damage on enemies that are already going to be damaged severely if they fail the dodge check. Like... ???eh??

I don't care that dodging is slightly better now with the flanking nerf. What I do care about is that these nerfs came with no significant compensation. If hitting is now harder with certain weapons, at least raise their damage globally. (By globally, I mean, don't make it so only evade users will see these huge numbers, tanks need to suffer too).

Weapon Potentials as a project seem abandoned, and stat scaling continues to cripple certain builds. GUI-heavy weapons like the Seventh Holy Scripture wannabe or Puppet Strings dagger are very hype, but gutted by how they interact with your average build distribution, or hold synergy-killing restrictions. These aren't trade-offs, they're more like hard handicaps that make you worse than someone with a basic ah katana and stat distribution.

(For example, Holy Word's case, it's a crime it even has GUI as a scaling, just because it's a gun. It would be so much better if it was something like STR/FAI or SKI/FAI, solely to make it synergize with the specific conditions appended. GUI/FAI? What coherent and usable, non-zerker build can come out of something like that? Don't forget that we tend to distribute around 55~60 Scaled, with is a SIGNIFICANT investment.)

But yeah, I agree with everyone. Future development should focus on revisiting old gear, repairing broken synergies (often the result of over-nerfs), and making enchants worth equipping. Give us tools that change how we play. Not just bigger numbers. And specially, not a "You can do this special thing, but sit far below the basic." as a drawback. This feels AWFUL.

[AkaInuHime]

(Small thing, but holy word is 70 FAI / 40 STR, it doesn't scale off GUI at all)

[Snake]

abuh, I confused the scalings for my other point of frustration oops, but that doesn't change my point, these quirky scalings don't play ball with the fact that we must spend at minimum 55 SKI to be able to hold a baseline on hitting

Like, if only some of those had part of those be just SKI, it'd help on balancing out the SWA balance. But things that don't scale from SKI feel like a damage loss outright.

[Miller]

GR2 Evasion just made it so that the floor of viability rose drastically and only encouraged people to funnel more into specific stat lines. Most nerfs in the game are huge double taps that completely remove an item's whole identity from existence. (Looking at Hayabusa and Narcus especially here)

I dunno, I'm just tired. Sometimes a lot of nerfs in the past are the product of people using hyperboles to support their statement, this even applies to the opposite end where people want buffs. Frankly, I just want the game to be fun, not balanced; if I'm being entirely honest, the game hasn't been any fun for PVP between people actively trying to win since GR2. Almost the entirely my joy from the game's PVP at this point is when two dorks bash each others head with unoptimized sticks.

You could argue that this has always been my joy, but it feels wholly exasperated with the fact that you need to crutch on evasion ignores or build your mandatory 60 SKI and then still miss because you aren't using the meta flavor of the mouth weapon or class combo that gives you +50 hit for free.

If I had to repeat a sentiment I've echoed since this mechanic was even unveiled; GR1 Evasion was a fair system but undertuned system, skills were a way to guarantee damage if you weren't sure if you wanted to take a risk on a high value basic hit. GR2 evasion is feast or famine, you either super win or you don't. Evasion ignores mitigate this aspect to a degree, but it's just a bandaid onto an aching pain.

[Autumn]

GR2 Evasion just made it so that the floor of viability rose drastically and only encouraged people to funnel more into specific stat lines. Most nerfs in the game are huge double taps that completely remove an item's whole identity from existence. (Looking at Hayabusa and Narcus especially here)

I dunno, I'm just tired. Sometimes a lot of nerfs in the past are the product of people using hyperboles to support their statement, this even applies to the opposite end where people want buffs. Frankly, I just want the game to be fun, not balanced; if I'm being entirely honest, the game hasn't been any fun for PVP between people actively trying to win since GR2. Almost the entirely my joy from the game's PVP at this point is when two dorks bash each others head with unoptimized sticks.

You could argue that this has always been my joy, but it feels wholly exasperated with the fact that you need to crutch on evasion ignores or build your mandatory 60 SKI and then still miss because you aren't using the meta flavor of the mouth weapon or class combo that gives you +50 hit for free.

If I had to repeat a sentiment I've echoed since this mechanic was even unveiled; GR1 Evasion was a fair system but undertuned system, skills were a way to guarantee damage if you weren't sure if you wanted to take a risk on a high value basic hit. GR2 evasion is feast or famine, you either super win or you don't. Evasion ignores mitigate this aspect to a degree, but it's just a bandaid onto an aching pain.

I agree with many of these sentiments, though I derive a lot of joy from the teamfight scenarios where individual plays matter more than someone's build necessarily. I also don't care if the game is just a little unbalanced, complaints come and go and counter strategies are formed to deal with rising threats, we recently saw this with Evade getting overtly strong and then suddenly being put back into it's place in a balance of the playerbase self-correcting it and looking for the next best thing to hit them with.

I've always felt like we could test or use a partial revert to the old Evasion system, there are many benefits to this new one that I feel like would have been welcome to the old one such as:
-Higher base glancing DR, no classes can just get additional evasion DR for existing
-Hit/Evade caps to prevent number scaling races (Spellthief and Corbie were the high end examples of what not to recreate in that system)
-Glancing avoiding alternative effects all together should absolutely stay.

Among a few other things really.

[Poruku]

Yeh, gimme gr1 but evasion dr is 60% and no bonus effects. Suddenly it would all make sense

[Sawrock]

I want to discount my takes on PvP, because I've been out of the scene for so long, but I remember how it was before when all non-basic skills were autohit and sometimes did even more damage than a crit- people would choose not to build skill at all and get more bang for their buck. When evasion damage reduction was 60% at first it wasn't too bad because you could wear someone's FP down, but a lot of FP-regeneration changes (high mage's cape, some talents) meant that FP management wasn't ever a problem.