[Snarky Soujo]

I'll just preface that I am an optimizer as far as PVP goes.

I use calculators, I make sure my stat efficiency is as efficient as possible for what I want to do. With that being said, I do not play the best builds outside of test server, testing.

[Prologue]

When talking about the Hayabusa set, you contextually have to look at the classes that will use it, before we get into the specifics of the weapons itself.

Void Assassin/Spellthief is the main combination or the main/subclass you'll be running for obvious reasons. Theres an amount of utility, additive and multiplicative sources of damage which benefit daggers and critical builds. Northern Wind alone is 24 critical while you are in the Northern half of the map, most times all you need to do is Southern Wind -> quick slide -> Northern Wind and your preparation is for the most part done.

Now the largest downsides to dagger builds in general come from: Accuracy, Class abilities such as Steel Aura (this affects critical effects and on-hit effects from weapons, and is very good versus many daggers in general)

I'd consider these the largest downsides. I don't believe you should be struggling with crit in general, 24 from Northern wind, 10 from backstab, at base you run around 100 base crit. Talking about certain subclass options, you can gain more than that obviously.

Poise from Duelist (easy fleur, haunting access, claret stacks, WG, not my favorite but it exists)
Fight as One from Bonder (my personal favorite, gives you 20 crit and hit! Tons of techs and unique playstyle options, defensively strong, you almost bonus evade with FAO and southern wind, with 5 left over from any other effect, and or overcapping for debuffs)
Hexer (pretty self evident, also grants you access to Deathknighting and a lot of great tools, blink etc)(but generally, just 25% for one is a lot for a curse that will last many rounds)

These are just a few options to address critical, at any point not counting items, you should be running effectively in combat 130% and over easily.

[Weaknesses?]

Now lets address some of the problems people have, mainly the big elephant in the room.


Accuracy

At base, just staring at the stat screen I averaged 200%-220% hit, tooled with remains and weapon parts. Now in battle you have flank bonus to add onto that, along with bonuses from your subclass and or mainclass. With full bonus hit you are gaining up to around (give or take) 270% hit, that is pretty reasonable but, how are you reaching that?

Invisible Weapon, 40hit
Fight as One 20hit
Plisfa's Masochism (auto hit)
Brighten 15hit (spellthief surprise!)

Let me be frank that I'm speaking strictly from an optimized perspective, you can run these weapons a few ways. I cannot understate that there are solutions to problems, and you might sacrifice something here and there but if you lose because you're being greedy as you can be, that is on you. You are competing with far shot but that is the bane of all range weapons, surprise. You have to take that gamble if you are willing to toss a dagger with the penalty, or if you are going to wait out buffs, position yourself and or use other creative tools.

Its not my job to give and explain everything, but just to address the strength of these things.

[Class Matchup Problems]

Now you might be saying, what about watchful eye? What about steel aura?

You have answers luckily!

Steal (this one isn't guaranteed but its going to get you two crits and you're back to 6m)
Wash Away (kind of an obvious one)
Obscure

But, lets not just talk about direct skill counters what about playstyle?

Well to be honest, if you are watching someone set up buffs and you plan to go in for attack? That's on you friend, if you are approaching a black knight and giving them value from their buffs without risk assessment, yeah rough stuff buddy. Same thing goes for a boxer match-up, you know they're going to geist you for single target, why give that to them for free? You have tools, things like traps, potentially spells or youkai skills, you have ground targeting skills too.

Or you would hope.

[Conclusions]

All in all this set is pretty busted, makes you stick to people and offers very strong on-hit effects. Dev gave us tools to make them stronger with the mundane enchantment, and made them a cut above every other dagger.

Guile scaling is insane, a sub scaling of vit is also pretty good considering you don't like to fold over and die.

Silence, Burn for defensive shredding, it often gives people only one or two sources of damage reduction

Its one of the largest reasons why I loath how Gear Sets, are represented with the other sets being awful, near unusable or sometimes worse than using the alternatives.

Examples being: Wulf, Neverending Story, Yin/Yang (these don't really need much explanation to why even with mundane being a thing), Dragon King (its sometimes a side grade or straight up worse in a lot of cases, in terms of damage and survivability)

Silence is strong, hurts priest players the most, but I think the burn is a more polarizing part of the combination that are these weapons. The balance previously was slightly there, given one of the weapons has a str scaling, but the enchantment got rid of that problem in turn. There is an issue of, what would you tune down and how would you balance it?

Removing the Burn is probably the easiest change, replacing it with a smaller effect. Adding an internal cooldown to the Silence for a sensible duration that isn't silent prayer's duration.

In honesty, I think its more a class issue of how many multiplicative and additive sources of damage that VA/ST can have together, or other combinations, not even accounting for item onhits and power bumps you can give yourself.

I'll leave what superior choices there are to the reader's discretion, I'm not here to unveil everything. I just am very surprised anyone has the perception that these daggers were anything but the top of the shelf in terms of for their class, and as a build for pvp, and even pve.

[Skullcatrons]

Someone neglects to mention that both the daggers have base power of eleven.

So your Akmedis armor will not save your ass by reducing the already atrociously high critical damage to be somewhat tolerable. 

Your only answer to hayabasa daggers are:

Build Crit Evades so high you might as well be a lich.

Build dodges out the ass so much you might dodge birth.

Good luck.

[Shujin]

Couple of the points mentioned are not accurate.
Invisible weapon is usually a 20 hit in PVP

Steal doesn't work on Watchful eye, so it's only obscure, aka one class limiting the options a bit again

also most of the post is very much them in a vacuum, without all the counters/Hit debuffs considered. Not to mention that thankfully most people are not out there optimizing to this degree, cause lets be honest, you can do that with pretty much everything to the point its just not fun anymore. Which I argue it is at this point of min-maxing. Which I think really only serves to paint it in a worse light than it is. But I agree with the rest and the essence of the post. It's a powerful set with no doubt, and it certainly does too much at once.

[Lolzytripd]

In their current state I don't think these daggers should exist, the burn, the silence, the free teleport to behind, sure back when they were added it wasn't so bad, but now when you yeet them across the map...nah....

[Red Witch]

I could not word my thoughts nearly as good as the above posts. But even so, I'll toss my two cents in and see where the pennies land.

Haybusa set is very good. Daggers are already an incredible weapon type with lots of great options and classes to cater towards them. You will not be led astray or be disappointed with the utility, mobility, and damage VA and ST provide.

If I had to choose, I'd call it a class problem really, VA and ST cover literally every base you want and give you every tool you could use to be successful at pretty much any level of optimization- unless you're purposely building bad.

Haybusa just makes it so much easier. Are there more damaging options? Yeah, but that's really not the point, they give so much utility and options that other dagger sets really just feel worse. Things should be side-grades, not upgrades. If I make a VA character I am actively choosing to nerf myself when I don't pick this dagger set.

Teleport move? Niche, but serves a purpose on occasion. Pretty much never a downgrade to ignore floor tiles on move.
Range? You betcha
Burn? Last call doesn't matter, and reduces defence.
Silence? Either does nothing or makes things hell for your opponent. At least Herons are better with all of you running around with this set.
The gap closer in case 7 range wasn't enough. Smile.

You miss out on a little damage, but does it matter when you get everything else you ever want, and anything you're missing you just fix with ST and call it a day?

It's a class problem honestly, but this thread isn't about that. Hayabusa just shows you how GLARING the class problem is.

[caliaca]

It's actually more damage than other dagger sets because it'll usually guarantee you get at least one more basic off with them than you would with any other with the exception of possibly Fangfare proccing. This is doubly true since it puts you behind an enemy, letting you benefit from backstab and flank.

VA/ST are very good classes.

I firmly believe that combo is the best class combo in the game. It beats out VA/Ghost and Va/Ss or ST/Ghost specifically because of stat distribution. Destiny lets you mitigate the issue of VA's class points as well, something that is a bit of a weakness (and lets you get relentless strikes if you want to).

Part of the reason that I think these class combos are the best in the game - yes, even better than Ghost/Ranger, which is likely currently overrated by the community - is because they have many good options.

Hayabusa stands chief among them for all the things that Witchi commented.

I don't believe we should double nerf things though. I don't believe in hitting multiple things at once because it's impossible to tell the impact of what was done clearly.

To that end, I propose nerfing the Hayabusa set before we nerf VA Or St.

My full proposal:

Take 1 range off them. I propose this instead of removing the interaction with throwing daggers because weird exceptions like that are very unintuitive for new players.

Remove the burn. Shredding more defense isn't required for these things to do good. Replace it with a minor on hit perhaps.

The silence might be overwhelming. But I'm not sure if it will be with neutered range.

We could also remove the teleport on move.

[WaifuApple]

The intrusive thoughts have won and thus I have come to say

Stab me mommy uwu

[Snake]

In all honesty? Trading away the Burn/Silence for "On Critical: Deals 50% Elem ATK Fire/Water damage, which ignores absorption and protection." could make this be less annoying.

[Poruku]

That would be broken kunai, what the hell

[Snake]

wtf how?