[Rendar]

Dagger Dance is (mostly) fine, because it's damage output is very low. The only problem with it is on-hit effects that can be easily abused. However that could simply get the applied 25% effectiveness that the damage itself does if we want.

Voltiger gives +25% extra sidecut/silcut damage per EVASION or MISS you accrue. Meaning that if you're using a lot of multi-hits on a dodgy duelist, of course you're going to get smacked hard for it (albeit I think multi-hits should count as one skill for the purposes of that).

Fleur is the major thing that is, currently, breaking the game and making it imbalanced. Fleur, Poison, and Stun are the real bad nasties right now that are in need or rebalancing and this'll make it better.

[Autumn]

The point being that Fleur having it's momentum removed doesn't destroy duelists who already dual wield, and dagger dance doesn't interact badly with fleur, as I said thats 7-6-5-2, compared to a single weapon doing 7-6-3-0, not many skills damage you with 2m, the interaction of dagger dance and fleur is more than fine.

[Sawrock]

I think Duelist is fine the way it is. Each class has a good ability(s), really. Duelists have fleur, Archers have pulling shot and long range, Summoners have their summons and install, Rogues have evasion, Martial Artists have meditate, Curates have good heals, Soldiers have HP tankiness as well as a good selection of weapon skills, etc.

[Autumn]

I mostly brought up the thread for discussion, my thoughts on Fleur is that it could very well stay the way it is and be fine, and I seem to be getting a few messages over other chat programs over this, when my thoughts, as I said in the first post I made on the thread.

Fleur was brought up in a recent topic, and whilist I don't think Fleur is a huge problem for letting a duelist do what duelist does best

more of a clarity post than anything, but yes, this is more of a discussion to those few who are specifically messaging me over this, when I am just trying to gather opinions, and suggest things to others who have concerns.

[Stenzio]

To be honest I have to agree with Sawrock. I really haven't had a problem with Fleur. Duelists are meant to be, as the skill implies, 'fluent', dancing and constantly striking. The proposed change Spoops had at the beginning honestly sounded fine enough so long as it just applies to perhaps the crit-damage from it (ergo, just less crit-bonus-damage consecutively).

Anything more or less just sounds strange. If Duelists can't be fluent and basically, as they are suppose to be, DPS? You are somewhat ruining the entire point of them in that regard. Each class has it's up's and down's (albeit some really need working to be useful again, Summoner as a whole for example). With that, each has it's counter. Usually for a Duelist, their Counter is BK for good example; an entire class dedicated to combating and tanking such problems. I really don't see whats wrong as, let's be honest, if it weren't Duelists and Fleur it'd be something similar in this case.

Like Evoker's back then who'd burst you down; being able to utterly destroy your momentum with booksmack upon booksmack so you can really only make a single action per turn. Because you know, that is fun and interactive compared to at least people taking chances to hit *and* critical hit you constantly, right?

[Autumn]

Perhaps if dodge was worth building once more but that's another topic for discussion, my originally proposed idea was mostly to balance out people getting nailed for over 600 damage a turn for crits they can...very hardly ever avoid, due to how crit evade works now, the original idea for it being something like 100% of your critical damage, 50% of your critical damage, followed up by 25% would still retain the whole mentality for duelists I believe where they're weaving in and out of attacks, and 1m crits still allows duelists to weave their attacks, my original post is still the idea I stand by in this regard, but I am still open to discussion all around.

[Kameron8]

Just because of how core Fleur is to an entire archetype of fighting, it honestly seems to be an act of futility to try and rework it. I could type up a wall, but I think the most succinct way to address this is to list everything out as if the skill was removed entirely.

Byproducts of not having Fleur

1. Duelists do far less damage.
   
2. Everyone but Verglas and Reaver DH has 2 attacks per turn; less of a disadvantage to rely solely on autohits. More autohits means everyone continues the trend of tanking up.
   
3. Limiting momentum economy for duelists results in 'approach' being even more important. If I walk up and attack first, I only get to attack once. My enemy can retaliate with twice that. I'm going to wait here and not walk up.
   
4. By extension of the previous point, knockdown becomes even more powerful. Knockdown is already very powerful.
   
5. 2 momentum skills become far less useful if default criticals are changed as well.

Nobody will disagree that it's one of the most powerful passives in the game for appropriate characters, but trying to keep duelist relevant after a sweeping change to Fleur is more likely to result in them being in a terrible or horrendously overpowered spot than anything else. Everything up to this point has been balanced around Fleur, replacing that will stir up a maelstrom of threads on Balance Fu. Instead, attention should be turned to improving accessibility to critical evade.

[Stenzio]

Will quickly say if the damage is already going to be reduced, there is little need to ruin the amount of momentum the critical hit gives you in the first place. That is just my own personal opinion in that regard.

[Exxy]

Regular Attacks with Tactician, all crits that land

7 - 6 (weapon 1 used to get) -5 (weapon 2 used to get) - 1 (weapon 1 used to get) or 2 (skill that procs Basic Attack and Critical to get, most likely followed by a 2M buff, either a Wind or Sharpen) - 0 (End Turn)

Dagger Dance with Tactician, all crits that land

7 - 8 (weapon 1 used to get) - 5 (weapon 2 used to get) or 4 (weapon 1 to get) ---

Regular Attacks with Tactician, all crits that land -- Without the additional Momentum from Fluer

7 - 5 (weapon 1 used to get) - 3 (weapon 2 used to get) - 0 (skill used to get)

-----------------------------------------------

I remember making an argument about how Vorpal is over-powered to be met with the "It's a chance within a chance" argument and the same applies in this instance (Hit % < 100%? You may miss altogether. Crit % < 100%? You may not be refunded that Momentum).

Yes, let us nerf something without an actual need to. Unless this is an actual discussion topic; in which case I stick to my original "scapegoating Fluer is silly." This isn't an issue.

[Autumn]

The topic as a whole was not supposed to be about fleur, but rather if there was issues that made Duelist too strong, as it was raised before, fleur seemed to be a really REALLY prevalent skill brought up, thusly is the main topic of discussion here at the moment, do not forget the other points I raised up.

However, bringing up that allowing other ways to gain critical evade would probably be my go-to, as of right now you literally have to be a black knight with boneheart or a priest with 50+ FAI and boneheart to actually avoid critical hit checks it'd seem like, or you get left in the dust.