[Autumn]

STR is an offensive stat that already gives you weapon stats on other abilities, it is also one of the highest stackable scaled stats in the game due to dragon king armor pieces, 1:2 would set the scales in a catastrophic position, it's about giving a small buff to STR, not about making it the best stat in the game, keeping in mind that physical damage is often inferior to magic damage due to physical DR being easier to come across than magical DR.

I think a 1:4 ratio is just healthier here, I don't think many will disagree with that, you're thinking too big, remember how WIL got a 1:4 ratio on Elemental attack and how much better WIL got? 1:4 is just a better ratio in general for keeping things in check, 60 scaled DEF isn't nearly as easy to achieve as 60 scaled STR either.

Average STR builds would be dealing about 10% more damage, which is significant already, and high STR builds would be dealing 15% extra damage for their heavy stat investment, we're not looking to invalidate tanks with a single stat but rather help keep DPS builds too dependent on SKI/GUI/LUC as their primary offensive stats.

[Snake]

Even though I agree with Spoops, I think things are getting a tad bit out of hand on the 'simplicity' fact. Why don't we leave this to be implemented in weapons as a new weapon stat, instead of STR itself? What I'm reading made me believe the single misplaced number in the ratio can cause a giant balance crash, where damage dealers will, instead of be face-to-face with tanks, overpower the tanks themselves.

So yeah, guys! Let's just try something small to make a solid base first, then add more complex stuff to it. Starting by what I suggested and leaving it at that.

Just saying that I've chose critical damage for a reason.

[Lolzytripd]

okay I'm willing to try that if dev accepts the idea at all

[Chaos]

Or maybe we should start butchering all the other sources of +Max BW and +Max Encumbrance, if STR's secondary effects aren't giving the impact that they should on STR dumpers.

If we REALLY have to add something to STR, though, I'd throw in +Critical Damage. DEF penetration on the one thing that DEF is supposed to combat is ridiculous.

[Autumn]

Criticals are supposed to be more about precision, being able to brute force through armor seems more appropiate, and not all STR builds are critical builds either, I feel as if DEF Pen. would be a more unique, and versatile stat, Chaos.

Or maybe we should start butchering all the other sources of +Max BW and +Max Encumbrance, if STR's secondary effects aren't giving the impact that they should on STR dumpers.

Yeeeeeessss, because dumping into STR for solving some B/W issues really feels rewarding doesn't it? Let's stray away from that, why don't we?

[Egil]

I'm not sure about what you mean by ratios and what have you, but I don't really see strength lacking beyond the fact that people build gimmick builds based around other stats (ie building high SKI for both a high hit ratio and to have high scaling with a SKI-scaling weapon, as opposed needing to build STR and SKI to hit with basic attacks on STR-scaling weapons).

[Chaos]

Criticals are supposed to be more about precision

Then please explain to me why Axes outclass Swords and Spears in the base Critical Damage department.

Sure, daggers slipping through armor and into someone's throat is a solid image, but Critical Damage can also be seen as breaking through someone's defenses with sheer, overwhelming power.

I don't think 'versatility' is the driving point with STR, it's about having the horsepower to land solid, physical blows and the ability to lug around heavy stuff without breaking your back. Inate DEF bypassing is not necessary here.

Yeeeeeessss, because dumping into STR for solving some B/W issues really feels rewarding doesn't it? Let's stray away from that, why don't we?

'rewarding' isn't the driving point here. If the secondary effects of STR can be safely ignored due to extremely accessible stuff like VIT and Packrat, there's a problem, because no stat in this game should be dumped without any consequences.

[Stenzio]

Then please explain to me why Axes outclass Swords and Spears in the base Critical Damage department.

Sure, daggers slipping through armor and into someone's throat is a solid image, but Critical Damage can also be seen as breaking through someone's defenses with sheer, overwhelming power.

I don't think 'versatility' is the driving point with STR, it's about having the horsepower to land solid, physical blows and the ability to lug around heavy stuff without breaking your back. Inate DEF bypassing is not necessary here.


'rewarding' isn't the driving point here. If the secondary effects of STR can be safely ignored due to extremely accessible stuff like VIT and Packrat, there's a problem, because no stat in this game should be dumped without any consequences.

First and foremost, I would like to say I tend to build Str. quite a lot on multiple characters. Constantly. I frequently use melee weapons that scale with it in some way, somehow. I also have a few characters (i.e V.A focuses, etc) who even if they, say, have high base Str raised by aptitude tend to -still- have B.W issues. Or are so close to the margin for it that a single debuff could make them be beneath their B.W (a certain shaitan of mine who, even despite high base str, is only in that narrow margin due to high vit as his build demanded it for his weapon).

Even my Str. focused BK/DH who has around 60+ str, has B.W issues to the point I had to fully spec into Packrats talent trait just to be -equal- to my total.

At most? You can, with high Str and Vit from my exeprience (with Packrat) get around 67 BW total or somewhere 'near' 65+. This surprisingly still can, at times, not be enough!

>Back on topic:

I really don't believe constantly nerfing things will make the situation better. The BW consequence of not dumping anything into Str, as far as I can tell, tends to always be prominent already (or at least, for everything I do it is). Seriously, can we drop this whole 'piercing DEF/RES' thing too? Go with what Snake already said; 'a base to be built upon (if at all) in the future'. If anything tanks have taken enough of a nerf due to Black Knight being rather useless main classing now, Weathered Body being impossible to access practically or, even if you can, being utterly useless in the sense of it's more beneficial to have higher physical armor, and magical armor on a torso item, and Ogata's being made to only active with Kensei main classing or if your CEL is greater than your DEF.

TL;DR: I am all for Snakes initial suggestion; outright and fully.

[Grandpa]

I was thinking about this again when it was brought to my attention that dodgy characters would be deleted (see: probably two-hit by every attack) by this kind of change. While I still agree with the def/res piercing and hp from strength, I also believe that it should only occur on basic attacks and skills that use them. This would mean tanks would be getting hit most often and characters that build for dodge wouldn't get instantly murdered by defense piercing autohits at essentially 0% physical/magical DR.

To go along with this, maybe the nerfs to the traditional tank class (black Knight) could be rolled back? I think a defense piercing stat is a good enough nerf to at least those tanks, honestly.

[Snake]

That's why I said it would be better to just use what I put in the OP and just that.

+HP (on partial efficiency of VIT) and +Crit Damage (on partial efficiency of GUI) for STR (like FAI behaves to FP) are enough of what STR people can use or consider using if they don't invest in STR, aside just being able to carry/wield a little more stuff.

IMO adding this defense piercing might result in a big waste of time [b]>FOR NOW