[Nanovelich]

While trying to think of how to reply to the whole thread on the Basic Attack fix, I eventually gave up. I could make a rant about Vorpal existing, but that's a borderline case that should probably be knocked down a peg so it doesn't prevent the rest of basic attacks from being lifted back up.

That's beside the point.


A major problem I've found with basic attack builds that -aren't- relying on Vorpal to process and score them an upwards of 500 damage on someone regardless of how tanky they are: STR.

A very large majority of weapons scale off of it, but it provides very little otherwise. You get additional BW, which is only important to heavy builds since they want that extra weight, whereas anyone else reduces their gear's weight to fit what they already accommodate rather than opting for more STR, unless they're going for Two Hand... in which case they're still grabbing the talent to reduce the effective weight of their weapon in the end.

It provides Fire ATK, sure, but that's not very relevant to the basic attack builder either unless they include a reason for it.

And it provides Encumbrance, which is simply a dungeon-delving luxury and completely irrelevant in battle unless you've managed to Overencumber yourself before the fight.


So, what is STR good for? Weapon scaling, because so many melee weapons scale off of it.

This is in comparison to everyone else getting weapons that scale off of stats that also provide them other significant benefits. Ranged weapons? Scaling off SKI, which they needed to hit anyway. Daggers? Scaling off GUI and LUC if they're good ones Vorpal Fang, which they wanted for criticals COUGH FOR VORPAL COUGH anyway. Tomes? Whatever stats they need for their main magic and WIL, which again, they wanted anyway.



So a random thought. What if we looked back a bit on old formulas and made STR add additional numbers to the SWA for basic attacks only, rather than roll back to a bug?

This gives more incentive to build STR and use STR scaling weapons rather than everyone jumping to the same handful of weapons that don't rely on STR like they do now, and it gives people what they want in getting basic attacks back up a bit in the game.


Because let's be honest, a very large majority of the weapons in game are completely ignored because they scale off of STR, and unless you're a Reaper/Apertaurus looking to throw some Dragon Remains on them for a casting tool, you don't want to use them. And if it's not an Axe or a Spear, it's almost useless altogether. Why invest in STR to match one weapon's scaling when you could find a different weapon that doesn't make you? If you're MA? Better run HoTG for +12 STR, because STR is absolutely necessary for your classes, and not getting that +12 will kill your stat allocation otherwise.


So that was the random thought I had. Is it good? Is it bad? I don't really know; you tell me. Just thought I'd put it out here and see what other people thought. I don't even know what numbers I'd suggest this go off of if not simply "+STR damage to basic attacks." Because I feel like that would be too high, but I also feel like STR/2 would be too low. Difficult to say.

[Chaos]

There is one possible Trait I can see making STR more useful for basic attacks:

Brute Force (Requires 25~30 STR)
If the attacker's Scaled STR exceeds the target's Armor, their basic attack gains +(Scaled STR - Target's Armor) Power, to a maximum of their Weapon Power.

For someone actually building up POWER and not just going for the weapon that scales off a defensive/SKI stat, this would give Armor some meaning and make Basic Attacks a little better.

[Rendar]

Thissssssssssssssss doesn't actually seem like that bad of a suggestion.

It's put a bit more emphasis on STR than I'd like (considering basic attack builds already have to build a shitton of different stats).

I don't think Brute Force should be requiring 25-30 base strength however. As aptitude does not count and there are... a lot of characters that I have that will literally never reach 25-30 base in any given stat bar like.. Aptitude or Sanctity.

15-20 (which is more in line with the other stats) base would be fine. Anyways, I don't like the idea, wholly, because if you're doing basic attacks you're usually running..

SKI/LUC/GUI/VIT at a bare minimum for your stats with SKI/LUC > 40. Then, you're also running a defensive stat, CEL and/or DEF/RES, where CEL > 50+ (if not 60+, the other two can be at 30+ for the damn price of CEL being actually useful).

So you also buy APT at this point, because it saves you points (which reduces your base in everything). If you have a decent race, you'll likely want at least 20 in your SAN (especially if Kaelen)... So throwing in another stat (STR) will make a lot of builds very uh... squeezed in and lower other stats. Not saying that it's a bad thing, in general. However it's a bad thing for a build set that is already squeezing in a shitton of stats everywhere else compared to an auto-hit build. (Plz Dev Gods; glancing blows when)

[Kameron8]

What if we looked back a bit on old formulas and made STR add additional numbers to the SWA for basic attacks only, rather than roll back to a bug?

I am hesitantly supportive of this. Originally I had hoped to just see all applicable weapons have their scaling shifted to use Strength, but it seems extremely unlikely a change of that scale will be introduced now. I like the idea of making Strength more useful for damage, and think this is probably a good way to increase the number of viable weapons that can be used, but have some concerns.

There are so many different ways to pad stats, that many people who have 50 or more Strength also already have their defenses covered. In that regard, this change rewards people for piling on as many raw stats as they can -- a situation I think is already too prevalent. People with some combination of Hands of the Giant, Death Knighting, Vampire passives, Verglas, Ki Awoken, and Fugu Katsu can get pretty much anything they want, and soft cap almost every stat. I also believe that's a different problem entirely that should be addressed, but the concern is there.

The only other topic of contention from me is Excel Weapons. Assuming the power bonus is a 1:1 Strength to Power ratio, an excel weapon could gain hundreds of damage from this.

[KhalidtheGrey]

You know Excel weapons got nerfed again and they weren't good in the first place, right? The charge is now 25/50/75% on ~70% scaling total. Just pick up a longsword and start swinging. It's better and you get to do other stuff with your glove slot and that accessory slot. Conversion + collar was the only way to use charge weapons at all, not they only keep up on a one attack per turn basis.

Though all this has no bearing with this topic. Stacking stats (which has a cap, 12, with certain, reasonable things ignoring this cap) and excel weapons are their own thing. This is about making building Str worth doing. I like the idea of that trait. Makes there a point to building more than just minimum Str to carry your stuff.

[Autumn]

The only other topic of contention from me is Excel Weapons. Assuming the power bonus is a 1:1 Strength to Power ratio, an excel weapon could gain hundreds of damage from this.

There's a simple fix for this, I'd support it as well.

Add STR to after all damage bonuses, before defense, so an excel formula would look something like:

SWP + Bonuses*(1.5/2/2.5) + Scaled/half scaled STR - Phys.DR%, -Other% -Armor = Result