[JoseJoseRSD]

I can agree with this comment for the simple matter of it only affects basic attacks more than it does Autohits, yes strength gets the lack of love but heck its still used when it comes to fire mages adding Crits to STR id say was a little much, I mean heck why would you want to add crit to it if it does more damage to you as a character. Your overacting over a small Stat to be honest.

I am not saying that auto hits or fire mages are bad, Axes and STR crit builds are bad.

Also, I do not quite understand you, "its still used a lot when it comes to fire mages, so adding crit damage would be a little much" theses things are totally unrelated to the topic, also, you are very biased, so STR can not be a versatile stat that works for many things, but SKI can be? or are you telling me that SKI doesnt give HIT, CRIT, skill slots and damage to any Ice based effect? so SKI is completely fair but STR having more usage than a meaningless encumbrance and BW is overpowered if given crit damage? also, what the hell you mean with small stat? so it would be completely fair for some stats to be stronger than other, thus making builds purposely overpowered while others weaker? seriously, where is the reasoning on all that?

Might as well say that beforehand you are very biased.

[JoseJoseRSD]

I usually don't post on balance threads, but STR is a bit underwhelming. I wouldn't mind seeing crit damage being added to STR. Like, 0.25-0.5%+ Crit Damage per 1 STR or something.

It should be 0.5% at least, 0.25% is just way too low, if it is 0.5%, it will be on par with SKI giving crit chance, so it would be a fair comparison between stats.

[Autumn]

Here's the issue behind strength, it is the highest stackable stat in the game, I think that it should just add flat damage to basic attacks rather than add critical damage, which is a modifier that could quickly get out of control, its also a benefit to builds that don't build crit either, so you know, versatility like you wish for.

[JoseJoseRSD]

Here's the issue behind strength, it is the highest stackable stat in the game, I think that it should just add flat damage to basic attacks rather than add critical damage, which is a modifier that could quickly get out of control, its also a benefit to builds that don't build crit either, so you know, versatility like you wish for.

STR is not more stackable than any other stat, yeah ,there is Dragon Knight set, but theses come at a cost, it is not like you will get 5+ STR for free, you have to waste parts of the inventory that could have been used for another purpose.

Flat damage to basic attacks will not solve the problem, people either use basic attacks or use autohits, there is no such thing as picking both and because people do not pick both, adding flat damage to basic attacks would be the same as adding crit damage to it but worse, do you realise that you can not deal good basic attack damage without critting anyway?

Also, Crit damage should be added to STR for the purposes of versality, GUI being the only option means that people have to either get it, or they deal no basic attack damage, do you know that Axes, Sword and other STR scaling items, that also would like to basic attack and deal good basic attacks, would get a door very open if STR would become the Crit damage stat for that kind of weapons? so that gives a lot of versatility, but you are changing the point because I am using the "Versatility" as a subject of argument, why stop there in such logical fallacy? give every stat everything, regardless of the point of a debate to fix a problem, put versatility in an altar and make it so every build is viable because they will have every stat, bonus and skills.

I dont want to sound offensive, but just showing up the problem about such argument you are trying to make, the main point of the conversation is making STR more viable to increase versatility along with it(instead of a stat that you should dump if you can lol), if versatility would be the main point, I would go against main class skills in the first place.

[Autumn]

Here's the issue behind strength, it is the highest stackable stat in the game, I think that it should just add flat damage to basic attacks rather than add critical damage, which is a modifier that could quickly get out of control, its also a benefit to builds that don't build crit either, so you know, versatility like you wish for.

STR is not more stackable than any other stat, yeah ,there is Dragon Knight set, but theses come at a cost, it is not like you will get 5+ STR for free, you have to waste parts of the inventory that could have been used for another purpose.

Flat damage to basic attacks will not solve the problem, people either use basic attacks or use autohits, there is no such thing as picking both and because people do not pick both, adding flat damage to basic attacks would be the same as adding crit damage to it but worse, do you realise that you can not deal good basic attack damage without critting anyway?

Also, Crit damage should be added to STR for the purposes of versality, GUI being the only option means that people have to either get it, or they deal no basic attack damage, do you know that Axes, Sword and other STR scaling items, that also would like to basic attack and deal good basic attacks, would get a door very open if STR would become the Crit damage stat for that kind of weapons? so that gives a lot of versatility, but you are changing the point because I am using the "Versatility" as a subject of argument, why stop there in such logical fallacy? give every stat everything, regardless of the point of a debate to fix a problem, put versatility in an altar and make it so every build is viable because they will have every stat, bonus and skills.

I dont want to sound offensive, but just showing up the problem about such argument you are trying to make, the main point of the conversation is making STR more viable to increase versatility along with it(instead of a stat that you should dump if you can lol), if versatility would be the main point, I would go against main class skills in the first place.

The function is still the same, adding damage to the hit, but less in the form of a modifier and more in one that covers for a recent change to power on basic attacks, also to say that there is no such thing as picking both is simply just untrue, because people pick both all the time, have you ever seen a lightning critical build? Or Demon Hunter or Soldier in general when paired up with Duelist? Swords perform the best due to their role as being the versatile weapon, but Demon Hunter can circumvent that entirely and remove the weapon restriction entirely, that is its strength.

Adding a modifier to STR is just going to make it disastrous because STR is the highest stack able stat in the game, home to 2 races sporting 10 Base amount along with the dragon king armor, gloves and helmet, two of these pieces are easily slapped into any STR build, if not all 3, you can see STR hitting upwards to 70 to even 75 Scaled if you're decked out enough to do that, which makes some weapons hit some pretty drastic amounts of damage.

Also axes shouldn't solely be defined to the weapons with the most critical damage, they are also among the heaviest and highest power weapons in the game, with hefty scalings centered into STR to boot, and the more a weapon focuses on 1 stat the easier it is to achieve even higher SWA amounts for that weapon, and the higher your SWA the more damage you'll just deal with overall, until the point where critical damage isn't necessary to have, but this only holds true to weapons that are amplified by two hand's modifier really, as they should be focusing on pumping up SWA rather than critical damage to start with.

There are also weapons specialized into dealing damage with criticals, the battle axe for instance, or the Hisen or Duodent are all very good examples of martial weapons that may be used for purely critical based builds instead of mixed builds like they honestly should be.

I just don't think you get it because fundamentally they do the same thing except one can be controlled easier due to a flat number rather than possibly getting out of control on the high STR base races because its a modifier.

[Lolzytripd]

Also another issue worth looking up in the whole issue of strength based crit builds is how easy it is to be tanky and have a pretty decent amount of critical evasion.

[JoseJoseRSD]

Here's the issue behind strength, it is the highest stackable stat in the game, I think that it should just add flat damage to basic attacks rather than add critical damage, which is a modifier that could quickly get out of control, its also a benefit to builds that don't build crit either, so you know, versatility like you wish for.

STR is not more stackable than any other stat, yeah ,there is Dragon Knight set, but theses come at a cost, it is not like you will get 5+ STR for free, you have to waste parts of the inventory that could have been used for another purpose.

Flat damage to basic attacks will not solve the problem, people either use basic attacks or use autohits, there is no such thing as picking both and because people do not pick both, adding flat damage to basic attacks would be the same as adding crit damage to it but worse, do you realise that you can not deal good basic attack damage without critting anyway?

Also, Crit damage should be added to STR for the purposes of versality, GUI being the only option means that people have to either get it, or they deal no basic attack damage, do you know that Axes, Sword and other STR scaling items, that also would like to basic attack and deal good basic attacks, would get a door very open if STR would become the Crit damage stat for that kind of weapons? so that gives a lot of versatility, but you are changing the point because I am using the "Versatility" as a subject of argument, why stop there in such logical fallacy? give every stat everything, regardless of the point of a debate to fix a problem, put versatility in an altar and make it so every build is viable because they will have every stat, bonus and skills.

I dont want to sound offensive, but just showing up the problem about such argument you are trying to make, the main point of the conversation is making STR more viable to increase versatility along with it(instead of a stat that you should dump if you can lol), if versatility would be the main point, I would go against main class skills in the first place.

The function is still the same, adding damage to the hit, but less in the form of a modifier and more in one that covers for a recent change to power on basic attacks, also to say that there is no such thing as picking both is simply just untrue, because people pick both all the time, have you ever seen a lightning critical build? Or Demon Hunter or Soldier in general when paired up with Duelist? Swords perform the best due to their role as being the versatile weapon, but Demon Hunter can circumvent that entirely and remove the weapon restriction entirely, that is its strength.

Adding a modifier to STR is just going to make it disastrous because STR is the highest stack able stat in the game, home to 2 races sporting 10 Base amount along with the dragon king armor, gloves and helmet, two of these pieces are easily slapped into any STR build, if not all 3, you can see STR hitting upwards to 70 to even 75 Scaled if you're decked out enough to do that, which makes some weapons hit some pretty drastic amounts of damage.

Also axes shouldn't solely be defined to the weapons with the most critical damage, they are also among the heaviest and highest power weapons in the game, with hefty scalings centered into STR to boot, and the more a weapon focuses on 1 stat the easier it is to achieve even higher SWA amounts for that weapon, and the higher your SWA the more damage you'll just deal with overall, until the point where critical damage isn't necessary to have, but this only holds true to weapons that are amplified by two hand's modifier really, as they should be focusing on pumping up SWA rather than critical damage to start with.

There are also weapons specialized into dealing damage with criticals, the battle axe for instance, or the Hisen or Duodent are all very good examples of martial weapons that may be used for purely critical based builds instead of mixed builds like they honestly should be.

I just don't think you get it because fundamentally they do the same thing except one can be controlled easier due to a flat number rather than possibly getting out of control on the high STR base races because its a modifier.

Assuming STR gets 0.5% crit damage, what is the highest amount of crit damage the stat could get itself? 40% extra crit damaga? because with diminishing returns, at best it would be 30%, so why are exaggerating STR being overstacked if Dev can just simply do the math to give a balanced number?

No, lets better do this, nerf CEL, GUI, LUC and SKI, because people who uses theses 4 stats, stack them up to the point of 60 or 70 numbers in all of theses stats, so if STR being overstacked should be a problem, let it be a problem to every stat then, that way it would be fair.

Also another issue worth looking up in the whole issue of strength based crit builds is how easy it is to be tanky and have a pretty decent amount of critical evasion.

Then this will also help builds with no STR but have somewhat a base STR, also, the point is giving a bump to the set of STR based crit weapons (Axes, some swords and spears) so focusing in things that could counter a build like that should not be used as argument.

[Lolzytripd]

Then this will also help builds with no STR but have somewhat a base STR, also, the point is giving a bump to the set of STR based crit weapons (Axes, some swords and spears) so focusing in things that could counter a build like that should not be used as argument.

That's not what I meant that crit builds, and crit builds that don't use luck or guile for damage and need to build str suffer because you get a lot of critical evasion from classes, FAITH, and items.

And if str crits became good again you'd see the rise in use of bleached fang again. Its quite easy to build near 100% crit evasion

[WaifuApple]

I am not saying that auto hits or fire mages are bad, Axes and STR crit builds are bad.

Also, I do not quite understand you, "its still used a lot when it comes to fire mages, so adding crit damage would be a little much" theses things are totally unrelated to the topic, also, you are very biased, so STR can not be a versatile stat that works for many things, but SKI can be? or are you telling me that SKI doesnt give HIT, CRIT, skill slots and damage to any Ice based effect? so SKI is completely fair but STR having more usage than a meaningless encumbrance and BW is overpowered if given crit damage? also, what the hell you mean with small stat? so it would be completely fair for some stats to be stronger than other, thus making builds purposely overpowered while others weaker? seriously, where is the reasoning on all that?

Might as well say that beforehand you are very biased.

Alright, time to give my opinion on all of this argument. Let's start with the biggest problem here.

Might as well say that beforehand you are very biased.

This post is a matter of people's opinion on the idea. Your argument that someone is biased is honestly pretty stupid, considering opinion always has bias. Just like you're biased towards this idea. So, keep in mind next time you make suggestions that you need to learn to respect opinions, even if you don't like them.

----

With that out of the way, though, I'll talk about my opinion of the idea itself. It's MY opinion, so yes it will be biased, just like any other opinion, so please keep that argument to yourself. My main concern is that strength is already the main stat for a lot of melee weapons. From strength, with your proposed change, you're not only getting SWA, Inventory Space, and Extra Battle Weight, but you're also getting crit damage as well.

The problem with this is how it affects already existing crit builds. They will see a damage boost, since most run apt, and therefore will have some degree of strength in their build, without building for it. This could potentially make already powerful crit builds do some more damage, which could make for a bit of trouble in the long run. While I do agree there's not much reason to build strength, I don't think this should be what happens for it. I believe Axes should be more about having a high SWA than crit damage, anyway, personally, so I'd more suggest buffing axe scalings, or power, to make them hit the hardest, alongside the fact they get a bonus from two handed, considering they're pretty heavy weapons.

I'd prefer what I've heard as a different suggestion, with strength pertaining to a flat damage bonus to basic attacks.

Now, regarding hammers. More ways of tank busting... don't feel right to me, especially not just straight up ignoring defense. If I remember correctly guns did that before, and look where they are now. I don't think we need hammers as a new thing, and if we really do need more tank busting things, personal preference does not like the idea of hammers being that. But, as far as tank busting goes... I'll have to say, most tanks I see can be taken down without it, but are, true to the name, pretty tanky. I don't believe we need more ways to kill tankiness, as it doesn't seem too hard to kill a tank. Healer doomwalls, though, are a different opinion to me, but it's not worth new weapons for. Alongside this, there are ways to chip at a tank's defense already, with geldoren debuffing it, buster cannon outright wiping it (god damn Buster Cannon though), and rampage existing as a tank busting enchant. (you're going to be able to hit most tanks, so needing to basic attack shouldn't be THAT much of a problem.)

Sawrock is right, too. A direct counter to defense just takes the value out of defense. If you devalue it too much, people will start asking to buff defense, too.

Basically: Strength does need a buff, but this seems to be specifically for axes, mainly, and for your own sake, rather than the general playerbase. There are better ideas out there, and I hope you'll understand that not everyone will like someone else's idea, and accept that.

And no, nerfing every other stat isn't a good idea either. That's all I have to say.

[Miller]

Frankly, despite feeling STR as underwhelming when I initially started playing the game again. I personally think it's it in a fine spot as is; thanks to the majority of weapons being STR scaling giving a fair share of options for builds.

If STR were to be buffed at all, Spoops suggestion to add a flat damage rather than Crit Damage would be the most acceptable provided the numbers account for the sheer stack-ability of the stat.

As a slight note for axes despite that being a topic for another thread; they just really need better skills to work with in all honesty.