[Maksimum_Fire]

Yep, I'm all with Airide on this one, even as the cloaked shaitan in that clip. The first priority should be making Shaitan's dark claw apply differently, so that it doesn't provide so much damage- And probably battle rush as well. If those were both SWA like Ryart's and Aerial Attacker are, I'd see a decrease of 88 damage per basic attack, or 176 per round, before accounting for how much guile boosts that by on each crit- As a 35 guile gunner.

Something that Spo didn't note and I don't think Airide mentioned is the effects of an overcharge sonic shell going off on 'each' of the enemies, and not just one- They all took 56 sonic damage three times, which would have been 4 times in a 4v4- Or even more if Airide's summon had lived the first attack. This also allowed me to turn 0 silence everyone, too, which is a VERY strong effect, especially in synchro with that all KD. The damage itself isn't even the biggest deal here, but it absolutely can be with single shot gunners and one overcharge- using celsius shell against an enemy team, a single shot gunner can deal 132 ice damage once per enemy target in a similar fashion, even if their leadstorm damage won't quite compare to q QD's.

That's all I've got to add for now.

Spo's thread: https://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic....amp;t=7200

[Maksimum_Fire]

Oh one more thing I forgot to add- Spo's propositions on changed spawns for group PvP would help with this problem a lot. Already, to get into position to hit them all, I had to use the full length of a spirited Winged Serpent- In addition, with current spawn positions, a square further of distance makes it RNG for those with spirits to be able to hit everyone- 50 50 odds basically- and impossible for unspirited folks to do so, giving them a 50/50 chance to be able to hit up to 2 people. Two squares of distance from what we have can prevent me from hitting everyone at once, having to either rely on RNG or only hit one person in order to KD the whole team. There's a variety of solutions that can prevent this mess from happening in the initial round of combat, beyond just nerfing the damage.

Spo's proposed spawn changes would circumvent this issue entirely, making it only possible to hit two people, if I'm lucky.

[Autumn]

I do think Ring of Thorns Plus is not mentioned enough here unfortunately, I think the effect should just be halved for guns instead of making it SWA or anything like that, I think at least +5 damage per shot instead of +10 is a lot more fair for the -10% HP Cost.

But yes I think both of these things do need to change as mentioned, mostly the starting positions.

[Maksimum_Fire]

I'm tentative on changing Ring of Thorns Plus, because I just don't see it getting any use in a build that wouldn't be better without it if it doesn't work with guns. As is, it's already a big sacrifice that pushes gunners into an all-offense state- Skyburn to fly if you're not a Corbie, then RoT+ for damage.

Beyond that, if all of these changes go through to make things SWA *and* RoT+ becomes 5 damage per shot, multishot guns will be dead, beaten into the ground and unable to stand up against tank builds of *any* sort. I'm of the opinion that if we make these changes, they need to happen slowly, and that RoT+ should be the last of these things to be nerfed because of how much it cripples you defensively for its benefit, as opposed to dark claws which gives you just over half as much in exchange for being a shaitan.

That all said. I do understand it gets 'out of control' when you have 10 damage a shot, leading up to a burst of 80 damage an attack, or 160 if you manage a double attack, which is very, very possible with winged serpent. I just want these changes to go through slowly, because with just removing dark claw and battle rush you're reducing a huge amount of damage output.

[Autumn]

I do think Ring of Thorns Plus becoming SWA would change the current issues to be had with Quickdraws at the current moment, and it would still heavily benefit a lot of builds as some might just prefer that SWA, if we can change Ring of Thorns Plus then we won't need to change Dark Claws really.

Thats the last huge outlier that is plaguing us when it comes to serious damage stacking and guns, we can probably make an effort to balance guns better later to appease most people, but dying round 0 or round 1 to these things is just not fun.

Another change that could possibly be made to mitigate on the lead storm issue other than just fixing the positioning we start with is also making Lead Storm not count bonus rounds when basic attacking, this would make most guns lose 1 round, but Quickdraw would lose around 6 rounds.

[Maksimum_Fire]

I do think Ring of Thorns Plus becoming SWA would change the current issues to be had with Quickdraws at the current moment, and it would still heavily benefit a lot of builds as some might just prefer that SWA, if we can change Ring of Thorns Plus then we won't need to change Dark Claws really.

Thats the last huge outlier that is plaguing us when it comes to serious damage stacking and guns, we can probably make an effort to balance guns better later to appease most people, but dying round 0 or round 1 to these things is just not fun.

Another change that could possibly be made to mitigate on the lead storm issue other than just fixing the positioning we start with is also making Lead Storm not count bonus rounds when basic attacking, this would make most guns lose 1 round, but Quickdraw would lose around 6 rounds.

If I can ask you to clarify, Spo- Do you mean, by bonus rounds, akimbo? Since extended grip modifies the base rounds of the gun, you're not suggesting lead storm ignores the presence of those? I'd think that'd lead extended grip to even less use, since right now it's really not as good as it looks- In actuality you further spread your SWA in order to get an extra 21 effective damage if you have battle rush, RoT+, and dark claw, and up to 6(or 8 spirited) shell damage- Or a little more if you're akimboing handguns with 3 or more base rounds, something that quickdraw does not have. If you specifically just means bonus rounds- Meaning akimbo and QD rounds- That makes some sense to me and I wouldn't fight that change hard. I think lead storm is in a very strong spot for pretty much all guns, and could use some nerfs.

I disagree a little bit still on RoT+ receiving the SWA treatment, but if it's the direction we wind up going, I won't fight it. If that, and these other suggested SWA shifts for Dark Claws and Battle Rush come about, there needs to be some serious thought given to multishot guns and their viability, because those bonuses are seriously what's keeping them alive right now. Shell damage is not crazy significant, even with eight plinks of it.

[Autumn]

Those thoughts can come at another time when guns can be reworked and set along a better path, but for now, absolutely nobody likes the possibility of having any fight ruined by someone boosting over to your team for 1m and obliterating it.

Ring of Thorns Plus becoming SWA is ultimately healthier for the item, and healthier in general since multi-shot guns do exist, it doesn't even benefit Dagger Dance that hard since Dagger Dance still reduces damage properly.

We removed Matador Stance's KNP basically being an off-switch for multi-shot guns and so they have been allowed to get away with what they do sans blade barrier magnetic shield being the only thing that turns it off again.

Also yes Bonus Rounds does refer to the rounds of a gun that are not its base rounds.

[Kameron8]

I see no reason why Quickdraw should benefit 7 fold from these items and abilities, when it already has the benefit of giving you over a half-dozen chances to bypass high evade, land a critical for momentum's sake, and go first in initiative every single time. I can't imagine how sharp claws makes a bullet do more damage from a flavor standpoint to begin with. And I can't imagine how dealing 500+ damage four times and denying 12 momentum from a team before anyone gets to control their character needs a gradual, slow change.

When this manifests in an 8 man fight, it's the most obvious and the most polarizing. However, in that context, the issue is HEAVILY due to player spawns more so than anything else. Winged Serpent is partly to blame, but being able to maneuver into a position to Lead Storm an entire team as the first action you take is the real reason this gets as ugly as it does.

Would it still suck to have someone fly forward and shoot you for 500-900 damage before you can act? Yes. Is it overly efficient when compared against all of the other rush-down options in 1 on 1 combat? Most of the time.

So nerf the damage all you want, but the issue will never go away entirely until teams aren't one big ball at combat's start. Remove guns from the game and it becomes Blood Spike and Eclair. Remove those from the game it becomes Wretched Oil. So on, and so forth, because everyone is within range to hit simultaneously with AoE attacks.

[Autumn]

Well put, but unlike Blood Spike/Eclair/Etc. this one is highly accessible from the start and provides the biggest impact currently, Wretched Oil still runs into problems vs high status res or poison immunity straight up, or people who have poison cures, also being faster than everyone without a Quickdraw is requiring some heavy investment to make it work.

On top of this, if a team can predict a rush down strategy they disperse, leaving the slower tanky people unable to start off with that sort of strategy.

I'll say this again but we desperately need spawning positions fixed, and as Kameron put it, Quickdraw + RoT+ is wholly unfair to a majority of people, its just too good into too many things.

[Snake]

Good lord, it hasn't been changed to SWA yet? Lame.