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Strength stat rework
#11
Yeah I absolutely agree. But You also do not nessercairly have to throw lance de lion and falcon strike right after each other...No real loss in waiting a turn to eeposition, its just so that both of these entirely ignore all defensive ooptions for a bazllion damage, given their scaling..:Checkmate is also an Issue in my opinion, with its easy to acheive 100% hit chance.

About magic user being objectively (actually I am pretty certain they are) being stronger, much as Fern says, doesn't mean the other one is fine. ALOT needs to be done to fix the balance here again.

Though of course, what you guys say is also true. But I think it might be easier to fix one at a time and slowly dial back on some of those crazy numbers.
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#12
HP Gain is not the issue with tanks, its likely attributed to there being no punishment in being able to split both your defensives really hard and leaving no weaknesses as a result, if say I had 60 RES and 50 DEF as a black knight I'd be nearly unkillable to almost any source of damage. Results can obviously vary depending on the matchup quite heavily but as a general case at that point all you need to have after that is merely more effective damage to win a trade or one on one.

Nerfing HP gain from STR will do nothing but just flush STR down into the shitter again I feel, its not even terribly strong as is and I feel like most people gain more from building VIT anyways, STR just helps you out stat efficiency wise because now you won't have to build nearly as much VIT to keep up with the other folks stat wise.
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#13
As someone who plays basic attackers, autohit tanks and mages using Strength, this is not it. Here's why:

▪ It further incentivizes Duelist builds like Raijin without Strength at all, which are even further minmaxed to shit damage and die in one hit. This essentially neuters all semblance of variety or diversity for basic attackers, considering the sheer volume of weapons that have Strength as a primary scaling stat.
▪ If you further nerf Strength, the only Strength builds will either switch out into something else for even more survivability, considering how Strength is, at that point, essentially ONLY a scaling stat with no further benefits, or will maximize it purely for the sake of damage, leading to further point inefficiencies. (E.G. Fire mages either switch to being an Earth mage or are the only real source of fire magic being played.)
▪ Strength as it used to be was still barely getting used, and even then was being used purely for the sake of, "this weapon doesn't scale with anything else" or "fire magic is tied to Strength". The point of the HP being there in the first place is essentially rewarding basic attackers that really need that Strength dump for their statline to work, and being net neutral for anyone else that uses it, if not a nice little extra bonus.

Now, I personally think Strength is undertuned, actually, for all intents and purposes. Magic far outclasses most builds that use Strength, and why build for Fire and Strength when you could just double down and go Earth instead, or just go Lightning and blow people up?

I do agree that it needs an extra something to at least give more rewards for basic attackers, given that it's an extremely feast-or-famine playstyle, with no incentives to play unless you want to dish out hard hits. Something that'd affect ONLY the Strength-using basic attackers, because those have fallen hard out of the meta and have become either niche or unused.
Armor penetration is not the way to go here, and I'm of the opinion that the health addition was a step in the right direction.
Removing the health is overall making the experience worse for seasoned basic attackers who don't use non-Strength weapons.
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#14
I can assure you, nothing is undertuned there. If anything magic is just way too overtuned. You do not scale UP to that, but that scale down from there. People drop way to quickly in the first place.

Though to be fair I have barely any experience since the last 3-4 months and some infos might be outdated, but slowly working myself in again I have noticed the following thing to be just weirdly strong.

-SWA Tanks, mainly in variation of FB, Ghost, BK-combo mainly, that heavily use IP for big SWA boosts for their High scaling/defenses ignoring stuff.
-Any kind of Defensive "Fat Mage", has always been an issue, specially the Isenshi. It was fine back then to a degree because magic had a lot of reliable counters, which I feel like getting more and more removed to the point they feel unfairly unstopable (also party due the fact that Damage stat=Defensive stat, much like the physical variation only stronger.)
-Weapon Enchant Vulcano. This baby on a crit can fuck a party for up to true 400 BONUS damage a round per person (before fire res) alone, if you truly try hard. While yes the average is more around...75-100, thats still heavily overtuned. Even half of that would be good for some bonus damage.
-Seiryuu. I haven't tested much with him yet, but the evolved version seems utterly busted. Byakko seemed fine from what I could tell, but again. I barely tested this.
-Dynamic tomes scaling. They already get seeds, while they take a while to get and effectively use, which in my opinion warrants them being slightly better...60% Wil and 60% Def scaling for example feels super wrong. I think they should maxe out at 100% overall scaling, the seeds can carry the rest.

Thats once comes to mind at the moment, that are overtuned to a point where its unfun, together with me perceiving the damage numbers overall as a bit too high.
Though you guys probably have a bit more recent experiences with that, over a longer time than me in the last week.
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#15
I think a strength nerf is a rather poor idea. All of my most successful tanks do not build any strength what so ever and instead do their absolute utmost to avoid having to build it, because they can get much more health from more convenient, less build intensive and intrusive sources, such as simply investing more into vitality or sanctity. In addition, strength is a stat that can be entirely sidestepped to get a much more efficient mode of attack, by picking up a weapon that scales in at least 70% total in literally any other combination of stats. Most stats give far more than strength and simple SWA and minor HP, which can be found and gouged elsewhere to values often only 20-30 less than the most insanely gauged str builds without the penalty of being restricted to small single target or limited AoE strikes. Why bother with a sword when you can pick up a tome and isenshi half the map for utterly crushing damage? Before health was added to strength, the stat was largely considered to be one that had to be avoided at all costs to have a truly peak meta build, and after its addition, I've only seen that moderately alleviated. The tank issue doesn't lie with people building strength, but people who know better than to build strength and to instead rely on how easy it is to weaponize much more point efficient stats.
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#16
Strength isn't the issue with tanks. The HP gains mean very little when there are so many ways for a tank to gouge their damage res.

Think of it like LoL, yes most tanks tend to have a lot of HP, but they are banking on other mechanics, gear, resistances to make that HP effective.
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#17
I don't really think Strength needs any nerfs, period. It got buffed for a reason, and it could have been worse.
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#18
What the OP was suggesting wasn’t a strength nerf, but a rebalancing. Making it purely offensive rather than a hybrid of defense and offense. Giving STR a different benefit such as lower crit damage scaling than guile or some other offense oriented bonus might be interesting.
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