09-01-2021, 04:22 PM
Ho boy, here we go.
Alright, first things first. I like to remind those people that claim this system has been thoroughly tested, longer than 2 weeks, that its not just about your testing. Lets be honest for 5 seconds. You testing stuff with 2-3 people on the testing server is entirely different data as when you have to test it with everyone. The majority of people do not even go to the testing server...Yet everyone is allowed to vote on a system. Which means the majority of people voted for something that sounded nice on paper and have their first exposure to it now. so 2 weeks is accurate. No one claimed that this was going to be fun in the first few weeks and months, but if you give up too early with the revamping, thats kinda just spitting in Devs face and we end up getting nothing out of this aside a burnt out dev. Its very clear that he is doing his best here, and I assure you its not fun for him either. So lets all try to suffer through this together and make the best out of it.
About the systems itself. OP certainly sums up alot of my feelings. To me personally the game hasn't been fun before the change either though, it was the exact same thing as now, the exact same spamming of certain moves just in different flavours that were then fighting in their own tier of who was even more broken. Just that it were Chads that can live on 5-6 stats versus people that need min 7 stats with high over softcap investment to even function, and then still be ignored cause 5-6stat chad just pops evasion ignoring moves to not deal with your mechanic at all. So its kinda the same now? just that the people that never were the problem of the system have entirely new (at the moment unbalanced) struggles, while the ones that were the problem before remain entirely unchanged or get even more Tools to NOT deal with what the main focus on this rebalancing attempt is. In my opinion that made this whole attempt obsolete and keeping many of the new things that are without a doubt good, won't change this.
You would be silly to attempt and go for a healthy mix between hit and maybe dodge, if you could forget both high investment stats and put it in fool-proof options. It doesn't matter if glancing blow for 70% reduction, for 60% just for 30% or 100% evade. Cause they will always hit 100% and they will hit HARD.
Though a few ideas I had when spectating fights have been centered about that one strange line that Autumn said.
Dodge is so good that it is actually bad. The numbers are in reality absolutely in favour with hit, yet dodge feels quite oppresive when it triggers that everyone feels the need to build it, expect the problem children but I ignore those for now.
Let me write up some flaws that the current design has in my opinion:
I do not have all the Data for certain, and take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am certainly no longer as well versed with the game mechanics as many of you are after my 2 year break but I try to throw a pitch here:
I noticed one of the main people struggling to hit are magic reliant people, barring the evasion ignoring spells.
Solution idea: Give Will a little extra Hit (0.5 but probably 1.0 per scaled) however ONLY for magic (Everything you find in the magic tab in battle maybe tome basic attacks)
Reasoning: Most mages do not have access to hit buffs at all, nor do they build guile, so they need a reliable source of hit increase thats already in their build, cause most of them can't spread much thinner.
Strength does not enough compared to guile, making it less attractive for basic hitters.
Solution Idea: We could go the same path a Will above, just for skills. mind you though that if we add nothing on the evade side however to increase that number, this will be terribly unbalanced. alternatively you could just make it even beefer, buffing the HP it gives per point making it the more tanky option as most warrior arche types are, compared to rouge archetypes. 3 HP is just too little.
Reasoning: Strength is entirely inferior to Guile. It might also assist with the problem that certain people feel right now, of feeling like they ABSOLUTELY have to cap Ski. Or at the very least give you 1 more hit you can take. Seriously damage numbers right now are crazy high.
While Evade can be oppresive, even hard capping it, can still be 100% hit and guile is uncontested od the Status screen in regards of the Hit it provides. If the other changes would come to play, evade would be even more screwed.
Solution idea: Guiles hit increase counts to buff cap and give luc some evade back. Probably 0.5 later if that proves to be too little 1. 0.5 should be fine though if we keep 2 rolls.
Reasoning: Guile is currently the king of both worlds, damage and hit. While the damage part is atleast conditional, and the hit techncially too, the latter is very easily acheived. Making the hit buff it gives a constant threat in battle that currently stacking and even surpassing in effectiveness the current buff cap. Resulting in numeric inbalance between hit and evade on the Charactersheet. Luc is doing way too little right now, and I feel if its being added with half effectiveness as the Str/Wil hit buffs, it still helps those builds out while helping Highend Dodge versus Hitters to not be so onesided. If all of these cap with most peopel that currently do not benefit from any hit, gian some, while those that have to much get scaled down a bit to the cap everyone else has.
Thats some ideas IF we plan to keep the current system. I am not sure if I am a fan of the rolling twice thing. I think if the reduction through evasion is big enough to not be entirely ignored by autohitters, its also fine to not have them 100% evadable, aslong as those on dodge skills still work as an additional layer of punishment.
So I guess many people in this thread have said it already, but most of the changes work, minus the new Hit/evade balance and how punishing it is. Status effects at the very least could attempt to apply with a lower infliciton chance on glancing, then Luc getting status resist might even be worth considering.
There is alot in this system that works and made playing actually alot more fun than before to me, mainly that dodge skills actually have value now and skills like Sheath sword and riposte working against Skills is fun! But the things that cause the frustration at the moment are very valid and take away from the enjoyment.
#ChangeEvasionIgnoreSkillsToHigherHitChancePassCap
Alright, first things first. I like to remind those people that claim this system has been thoroughly tested, longer than 2 weeks, that its not just about your testing. Lets be honest for 5 seconds. You testing stuff with 2-3 people on the testing server is entirely different data as when you have to test it with everyone. The majority of people do not even go to the testing server...Yet everyone is allowed to vote on a system. Which means the majority of people voted for something that sounded nice on paper and have their first exposure to it now. so 2 weeks is accurate. No one claimed that this was going to be fun in the first few weeks and months, but if you give up too early with the revamping, thats kinda just spitting in Devs face and we end up getting nothing out of this aside a burnt out dev. Its very clear that he is doing his best here, and I assure you its not fun for him either. So lets all try to suffer through this together and make the best out of it.
About the systems itself. OP certainly sums up alot of my feelings. To me personally the game hasn't been fun before the change either though, it was the exact same thing as now, the exact same spamming of certain moves just in different flavours that were then fighting in their own tier of who was even more broken. Just that it were Chads that can live on 5-6 stats versus people that need min 7 stats with high over softcap investment to even function, and then still be ignored cause 5-6stat chad just pops evasion ignoring moves to not deal with your mechanic at all. So its kinda the same now? just that the people that never were the problem of the system have entirely new (at the moment unbalanced) struggles, while the ones that were the problem before remain entirely unchanged or get even more Tools to NOT deal with what the main focus on this rebalancing attempt is. In my opinion that made this whole attempt obsolete and keeping many of the new things that are without a doubt good, won't change this.
You would be silly to attempt and go for a healthy mix between hit and maybe dodge, if you could forget both high investment stats and put it in fool-proof options. It doesn't matter if glancing blow for 70% reduction, for 60% just for 30% or 100% evade. Cause they will always hit 100% and they will hit HARD.
Though a few ideas I had when spectating fights have been centered about that one strange line that Autumn said.
Dodge is so good that it is actually bad. The numbers are in reality absolutely in favour with hit, yet dodge feels quite oppresive when it triggers that everyone feels the need to build it, expect the problem children but I ignore those for now.
Let me write up some flaws that the current design has in my opinion:
- rolling twice, reduces your actual true hit rate, yet thats only true when you are below 100% hit chance so overstacking becomes very oppresive.
- High dodge characters sit at 150-220ish evade rate if we include buffs, many classes however do not have actual hit buffs to compensate.
- Guile is a beast. Its scaling with weapons is great, crit damage is off the charts and to top it all off, it can give you massive boosts to hit, which has no counterweight in the system...Yet its something many people do not want, especially the magic kind. Meanwhile strength does only the scaling part and 3hp. Meaning it either does too little or guile too much.
- The Value of Stats have shifted around, but some stats have not enough going for them. The main ones that fell behind are Luc, Str and to a lesser degree Wil.
I do not have all the Data for certain, and take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am certainly no longer as well versed with the game mechanics as many of you are after my 2 year break but I try to throw a pitch here:
I noticed one of the main people struggling to hit are magic reliant people, barring the evasion ignoring spells.
Solution idea: Give Will a little extra Hit (0.5 but probably 1.0 per scaled) however ONLY for magic (Everything you find in the magic tab in battle maybe tome basic attacks)
Reasoning: Most mages do not have access to hit buffs at all, nor do they build guile, so they need a reliable source of hit increase thats already in their build, cause most of them can't spread much thinner.
Strength does not enough compared to guile, making it less attractive for basic hitters.
Solution Idea: We could go the same path a Will above, just for skills. mind you though that if we add nothing on the evade side however to increase that number, this will be terribly unbalanced. alternatively you could just make it even beefer, buffing the HP it gives per point making it the more tanky option as most warrior arche types are, compared to rouge archetypes. 3 HP is just too little.
Reasoning: Strength is entirely inferior to Guile. It might also assist with the problem that certain people feel right now, of feeling like they ABSOLUTELY have to cap Ski. Or at the very least give you 1 more hit you can take. Seriously damage numbers right now are crazy high.
While Evade can be oppresive, even hard capping it, can still be 100% hit and guile is uncontested od the Status screen in regards of the Hit it provides. If the other changes would come to play, evade would be even more screwed.
Solution idea: Guiles hit increase counts to buff cap and give luc some evade back. Probably 0.5 later if that proves to be too little 1. 0.5 should be fine though if we keep 2 rolls.
Reasoning: Guile is currently the king of both worlds, damage and hit. While the damage part is atleast conditional, and the hit techncially too, the latter is very easily acheived. Making the hit buff it gives a constant threat in battle that currently stacking and even surpassing in effectiveness the current buff cap. Resulting in numeric inbalance between hit and evade on the Charactersheet. Luc is doing way too little right now, and I feel if its being added with half effectiveness as the Str/Wil hit buffs, it still helps those builds out while helping Highend Dodge versus Hitters to not be so onesided. If all of these cap with most peopel that currently do not benefit from any hit, gian some, while those that have to much get scaled down a bit to the cap everyone else has.
Thats some ideas IF we plan to keep the current system. I am not sure if I am a fan of the rolling twice thing. I think if the reduction through evasion is big enough to not be entirely ignored by autohitters, its also fine to not have them 100% evadable, aslong as those on dodge skills still work as an additional layer of punishment.
So I guess many people in this thread have said it already, but most of the changes work, minus the new Hit/evade balance and how punishing it is. Status effects at the very least could attempt to apply with a lower infliciton chance on glancing, then Luc getting status resist might even be worth considering.
There is alot in this system that works and made playing actually alot more fun than before to me, mainly that dodge skills actually have value now and skills like Sheath sword and riposte working against Skills is fun! But the things that cause the frustration at the moment are very valid and take away from the enjoyment.
#ChangeEvasionIgnoreSkillsToHigherHitChancePassCap
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