[Bryce_Hego]

The last time I made a post on this forum was because Cinder tiles were devolving into a push/pull style meta that forced players to always come equipped with something to deal with it. Now Cinder tiles work as they always should of, but that does bring into question a race that seems to rely on making lots of said cinder tiles as it's magnum opus. Hyattr, as it stands, has a problem of not getting good enough damage and effects for the Momentum and FP they must use, as we'll discover in this post.

The Hyattr we're going to imagine here is level 60 and has 100 base fire attack, 60 scaled sanctity, both very high end numbers. They will have access to all the traits, and be using a maxed strong smelling ashes prayer.

We're also going to get a bit extreme, and assume the Hyattr is abusing Impure Element from Void Assassin to give 160 fire attack total and has no issues with an enemy mage ruining such which is wishful thinking.

Without using any of the channels, you must spend 3M and 50FP to perform 152 damage in a 5 range line...No cinder tiles are created. For far less investment, players can achieve much greater damage feats with Fir. If you used a fire breathing potion, 190 Fire damage, but still unimpressive. Using while airborne doesn't have much value since again, no cinder tiles and you won't go very far.

Okay, so maybe the problem is Hyattr were never intended to breath their fire without channeling first? After all, they aren't a Salamandra, which mind you, would be doing around 260 fire damage in the same set-up with a non-explosion crit, and only 10 FP. (They also don't require any sanctity investment or locking to a specific prayer tool)

So let's just use Channel Destruction by itself, bumping the M cost to 6M overall. Now we're doing 312 damage, 390 with a firebreath potion for 50FP. You're also finally getting range comparable to a Fir, with level 45 cinder tiles, which should in most scenarios be an extra 45 damage. Note: Fir only takes 3M and 20FP to do comparable damage.

We're still spending 50FP, we're still abusing Impure Element for ridiculous numbers. Salamandra can also compete and outperform with this damage merely by using their flame two times in a row and for less FP.

Well, surely, max traits, using Channel magic alongside it will make it worthwhile? After all, we refund 33FP and massively improve how much it can hit.

The end result being you're spending 9M and around 17FP for 392 Fire damage, 490 damage with the firebreath potion. Using the firebreath potion makes the set-up 12M for the first time, 9M only on repeats until it wears off.

But surely, the best benefit is that we're destroying lots of terrain, player made tiles and objects, right? You can also hit many people in a team fight and cover the land in your mildly impressive 45Lvl cinder tiles, don't forget flying a sly 10 Tiles across the field. Well, most players have a way to avoid walking directly over cinder tiles, it's possibly to glancing and evade the damage. Anyone with fire resistance or good DR isn't going to be too worried about that damage.

And moreover, in a 1v1, it's just not going to do nearly as much as a Salamandra popping their flame 3 times. You can be immune to or absorb Fire breath. Once again, Salamandra using the same set-up don't need sanctity to output more damage than a Hyattr.

I also find it strange just how reliant on the channels firebreath is. Without them, it's worse than any other fire move I can think of. With them, it becomes costy momentum-wise. You're also expected to have the traits, but I guess that's fine all things considered. Hyattr's only real stake over Salamandra is crowd control and a low tier flight. Unfortunately, Salamandra's explosion art not only gives them some bussin AoE, but allows them to utilize it on other fire attacks.

Another thing to note is any competent Evoker/VA can perform Charge Mind > Sear with impure element for an 9M powerful 650 damage and cinder tiles that are unfairly level 160 if unavoidable. (Once again, a set-up like this requires no investment in sanctity and only costed 44FP without efficiency talent, nor do you need to chug a Fire Breathing potion.)

Almost forgot, but Nerhaven Fir when a Mage has 120 SWA with their tome does the exact same damage as a quirked out destruction channel firebreath for half the momentum and FP.
100% SWA (120) + 120% Fire attack - Fir(3M, 20FP)
120 Damage + 120% Fire attack - Channel destruction > Firebreath with Maxed Ash Prayer (6M Total, 50FP)
Did I mention Nerhaven Fir can cover more ground and Nerhaven Explosion inflicts burns?


I'm more than open to hear the communities ideas on how Firebreath could be changed to less of a niche than it is now. I don't think it being a hybrid movement option in the air is a good enough discount, or it's ability to hit multiple targets when that's not always going to be useful since you may destroy ally objects.

Two ideas came to mind for me personally, neither of which I think should happen alongside the other.

1. was simply giving 50% of SWA to Firebreath's base damage. Salamandra flame has 100% SWA+Fire attack at all times and dramatically less FP cost, so why not? Channel destruction could increase the 50% SWA to 70% SWA. It's still a expensive FP/Momentum move and this makes it more viable with and without channels. I'm hesitant to say 100% base SWA but I don't think that's off the table either considering it's FP cost.

2. is having the momentum cost of Fire Breath decrease by 1 for each time you used a channel that round, allowing a 7M turn to blast it right out the gate, but this could be seen as a 50% increase in DPS cause of the action economy. I don't think it outperforms any other DPS builds, and the damage numbers above are still assuming you abuse a specific class benefit for maximized damage. It also kind of further enforces that you need channels, which I personally don't like.

Bonus: Channel magic can give 1 Burn Lvl per 4 Scaled Sanctity for 3 rounds. 60 sanctity as a mere 15 Burn wouldn't be so bad, would it?

Besides, 60 scaled sanctity Hyattr really isn't very viable with how many stats you'll need, including plenty of strength/willpower/skill, unless you intend to abuse luminary element to skim strength. If you do not build hard into fire breath, it's only viability becomes the niche situation of AoE damage you could get from explosion, some weakish cinder tiles, and destroying objects. To which, at that point, what does a Hyattr have? a worse flight than corbie? A weaker version of Evoker's Absorb power? A low tier str/will buff?

They don't have enough going on for them in my opinion to justify Fire Breath being like it is. 
As it stands, I'd rather pick Salamandra and simply RP one similarly to a Hyattr, with Skyburn accessory for psuedo flight. Not like you can't reason one having horns, a tail comes easy. Breathing fire? I'm sure you can reflavor your characters method of casting fire without much issue.

Firebreath should, unchanneled, be just as good if not outright better than Fir due to FP cost and sanctity investments.
Firebreath should, channeled, be worth the extra Momentum pumped into it, that could otherwise be used on more impressive fire techniques.

[Trexmaster]

Hyattr went from being one of the most broken races in the game to arguably one of the worst in a series of unfortunate nerfs.

Once upon a time I even made the thread advocating for Fire Breath to be nerfed. This was in 2016. Dev was right that the major issue was the cinder damage but for the time period vit*2+character level damage was a LOT considering we didn't have SWA and weapon damage was just your raw stat + weapon power + maybe a mod from the skill cast. Anyway.

Then GR happened and it got double nerfed into being practically useless. Changes to how scaling worked then later down the line cinders finally being adjusted meant Fire Breath's only purpose became mass removal of field objects.

I'd advocate for the second option proposed as I don't think it makes much sense for Fire Breath to benefit from SWA.

I could also see Fire Breath's cinders getting a portion of Fire ATK added to their level, kind of weird that it doesn't scale at all with Fire ATK in its current iteration. Cinders aren't nearly as problematic as they used to be now that push/pull effects divide the damage.

Adding Burn to Fire Breath affected by channeling would also be a nice touch.

[Bryce_Hego]

I'd advocate for the second option proposed as I don't think it makes much sense for Fire Breath to benefit from SWA.

Same arguement can be made to Salamandra summoning flames from will. Why is the power of their random potentially ice based sword powering it up? It's not exclusive to tomes since it's considered a skill. My pick will probably remain on the first idea since I think firebreath should have value outside of channels. Even if we don't give it more damage via SWA, it needs to get more damage in general.

I could also see Fire Breath's cinders getting a portion of Fire ATK added to their level, kind of weird that it doesn't scale at all with Fire ATK in its current iteration. Cinders aren't nearly as problematic as they used to be now that push/pull effects divide the damage.

We don't necessarily want the cinders to be too overwhelming. I think most of the problem just comes from the damage it deals as a whole. Buffing their cinder tiles doesn't fix the issue as a whole they underperform compared even compared to a non-meta firemage and will only make people saltier when a Hyattr busts it out in a teamfight, resulting in probably doubling back once again.

In the current state, firebreath is quite literally un-useable without channeling. Like I mentioned, Fir basically works the exact same but is better in every way to an unchanneled firebreath.

Even with channeling, which costs a full action, the damage just isn't getting to a level worthy of the Momentum and FP put forth.

It also means firebreathing potion is double useless on non-Hyattr cause not only can you not channel it, but unless you're already using sanctity, it's base damage will be around 45ish which is terribad, and I wouldn't mind seeing non-Hyattr busting out a decently strong firebreathing potion...It still costs 50 FP.

[Autumn]

Currently, Fire Breath has the added benefit of being capable of destroying tiles and laying down some decently levelled cinders as a result, the damage is not all that bad but there are a multitude of better options to use your momentum on, namely I do think making something do too much damage for the utility it provides (In this case, not needing a specific weapon/class and the sheer potential range and tile destruction) can be quite a dangerous proposition, making base Fire Breath on the level of Fir is something I will disagree with given Fir needs a casting tool, I can agree with making it comparable, but just under is preferred. However I think easing up on its ease of access isn't a bad idea either.

1) Lowering the momentum cost of both Channel Destruction and Channel Magic can be a large boon, even making them 2m each makes the total cost 7m for a fire breath instead of 9m, making using this in 1 turn a more realistic goal, while also keeping the strength of Hyattrs there (Their FP sustain)

2) Increasing Firebreather potion's increase to 50% would make this option more of a preferable option for sheer dedicated fire breathing builds.

The FP Cost of Fire Breath is massive, but I do think that the FP Sustain of Channel Magic helps offset this, and you don't want to make it too much of a good thing.

Personally I really prefer the current direction of Fire Breath being something you build up for, given how cool it is to have the cone attack than the straight line.

[Bryce_Hego]

Maybe at this point I just want some of the damage acquired from channeling to leak into it's base. Maybe it shouldn't even cost 50 FP unless you've used channel destruction, since at the moment, without channel destruction, the entire move is without any semblance of value, especially a non-hyattr trying to use it. Building up into a really cool attack is fine but that doesn't mean it needs to be the only way to use it.

[Poruku]

I feel like it needs a solid increase to base damage. Make it a subpar fire skill when used by itself, and make the channels boost it properly. I kind of like the gameplay behind it, but the actual damage is the issue.

Adding burn would be kinda cool as well, it just makes sense really

[Snake]

Actually, I noticed it costs 50+ FP in some cases, so here's a hot idea to at least amend some of its gaps:

- Fire Breath deals bonus Hellfire damage equal to its FP cost.

- Channel Destruction increases damage by 15%. Inflicts 'Overwhelming Heat' on yourself and the enemy for 3 rounds.
>> Overwhelming Heat nullifies Fire absorption and inflicts Burn LV30 for 1 round, at the start of every round.

- Channel Magic increases damage by 15%. Inflicts 'Lingering Heat' on yourself and the enemy for 3 rounds.
>> Lingering Heat nullifies Fire Resistance (Fire Resistance is set to 0%) and nullifies Fire immunity.

It's just sad to see how Salamandras outperform Hyattrs, when the latter were the original pyromaniacs of SL2. Give the old boys a pat on the back, boss man! They kind of deserve it, serving more often than not as antagonistic rather than the pretty boy Salamandras who just look firey and cute. Most of the Hyattr players I've seen do kind of try to follow their lore as troublemakers, but when it comes to using their race's signature move, it gets vastly outperformed by a bunch of things.

It won't be a problem, really.

[Bryce_Hego]

Actually, I noticed it costs 50+ FP in some cases, so here's a hot idea to at least amend some of its gaps:

- Fire Breath deals bonus Hellfire damage equal to its FP cost.

- Channel Destruction increases damage by 15%. Inflicts 'Overwhelming Heat' on yourself and the enemy for 3 rounds.
>> Overwhelming Heat nullifies Fire absorption and inflicts Burn LV30 for 1 round, at the start of every round.

- Channel Magic increases damage by 15%. Inflicts 'Lingering Heat' on yourself and the enemy for 3 rounds.
>> Lingering Heat nullifies Fire Resistance (Fire Resistance is set to 0%) and nullifies Fire immunity.

It's just sad to see how Salamandras outperform Hyattrs, when the latter were the original pyromaniacs of SL2. Give the old boys a pat on the back, boss man! They kind of deserve it, serving more often than not as antagonistic rather than the pretty boy Salamandras who just look firey and cute. Most of the Hyattr players I've seen do kind of try to follow their lore as troublemakers, but when it comes to using their race's signature move, it gets vastly outperformed by a bunch of things.

It won't be a problem, really.

"costs 50+ FP in some cases" you mean all cases? The + being if you used it twice in a round, which isn't really worth it to begin with. Base Firebreath cost is 50FP, can't be reduced by efficiency since it's not a spell-type.

This is a very interesting take on buffing them though, certainly more creative than anything I can come up with. 50 extra hellfire damage at all times since it'll supposedly always cost 50FP. They'll certainly pack a punch with channels and have an interesting self inflicted downside.

Still, this set of ideas pushes that channeling is entirely required for firebreath to be worth anything, since 50 extra damage still doesn't outweight dropping 50FP and 3m by itself. I guess that's just their gimick in the end, and maybe it is silly to think of a Hyattr non-stop spewing 50 FP flames once a round to ever be a viable strat.

[Snake]

Good lord jesus. I guess Fire Breath really deserves to be an auto-hit that ignores the enemy's Fire Resistance, if it will keep being 50 FP at all times.

[Shujin]

I would say stuff could be sorted out with special breath traits.

So different options for different play styles could be taken.

Like more damage? have a trait that provides that but remove utiltiy like field object removal. etc.

Something along those lines, i think would be nice and more people would be happy with it.