[Slydria]

Charge Mind is the skill that makes Evokers special. I don't like the idea of palming it off as a thing Mage can do and I don't see a good reason for why it should be like that.

As for the actual change to it mechanically, is there a reason why it should function more like Charge Weapon? One of the big downsides for CM is the Momentum Cost. It leaves you open to counters like Null Shell, Steal or just plain old Silence and for the power it gets, I think that's a fair trade-off.

Calling this a Mage thread seems a bit dishonest to me when it's really yet another thread about Charge Mind.

[Rendar]

It's a thread to maybe give Mage a main class skill. The weaker version of charge mind makes normal mage spells a bit better (which is something I remember people whining a ton about). I mean. I'm down for Charge Mind staying the same, however if people wanted a reason to choose evoker/hexer as their main class, that'd definitely be one of them.

[Ranylyn]

You lost me at "Charge Mind for mages."

Furthermore, at those numbers... it's basically useless. Why bother making it combo when you can just cast 2 spells for 200% power instead of 150%? CM works as a "I cannot attack this turn, I am not in range, so next time I'll hit harder" skill, and making it "combo" is... well... basically... yeah. Furthermore, thanks to Brainstorm, CM NOT being consumed for Mage spells lets you save it for when you really need it (Example: once you drop them below the threshold they can realistically recover from, for a healer, or until your opponent stops guarding) and taking away that tactical advantage just screams "why" to me.

I appreciate what you're trying to go for, here, but... it just... doesn't work. And I hate to say it, because I feel that if any existing skill in the game were to be Main Class Only, it'd be Charge Mind.

[Chaos]

Charge Mind should never become a Main Class skill. The whole point of it is to make Evoker's spells hit hard, even in the face of RES tanks.
To be honest, I don't really see much within Mage that should become Main Class at all.

However, if we're talking Evoker, then High Speed Divine Words is certainly prime material for becoming Main Class. Especially when it's former use-- enabling Charge Mind to be used with Invocations-- has been replaced with Brainstorm.

[Ranylyn]

Disclaimer: This post contains OPINIONS, which are automatically wrong because this is the internet. Fortunately this isn't a top ten list, so it's not doubly wrong. Long story short, people suck, and we suck for being people. Moving on!

I suppose we'll need to disagree on that one, Chaos, as I personally find it ludicrous that Charge Mind single handedly makes it nearly worthless to be a res tank.

Rant spoilered for everyone's sanity. And I've heard all the counterarguments before, don't waste your time if you DO read it.

Due to the mechanics of how it applies, its kind of absurd. For example, 60 res against a spell that would do 100 damage would be 40, but CM would turn that 40 into 190. Sure, it takes 9M as opposed to 3, but without CM, you'd be doing closer to 120 for that same 9M. Sure, a res tank is still useful enough in PVE, but let's be honest here, CM invalidates it WAY too hard.

It takes the skill from "I'm not in range this turn so I'l charge up for when they reach me" and turns it into "Oh, they have high res, I'll just CM in their face since why the hell not, it's not like they can do anything about it. and I'll be raising my output consideraby anyways."

Then you consider that the only class with high Res growth is Ghost with 40%, which also has 20% Str and 0% Will, so good luck being a good res tank that can actually do anything else.

There's a reason Evoker is used so much more than LB, and it's not that LB sucks. Think about it. CM is -too- good, and the fact that threads have actually been made about BUFFING it in the past just makes me shake my head that anyone can be so unsatisfied and selfish with such a ridiculous Res Invalidator.

If I sound butthurt, it's because awhile back I actually managed to make an uber res tank, created purely to combat the fact that at the time, everyone was a mage of some kind, and EVERY evoker I fought oneshot me. Yes. 101% Res growth, decimated in a single overload. Sure, CM Overload takes 15m, but that's 15m I spend just getting into range and desperately trying to break the invocation.

I no longer have that character because ragequit, but I replicated their setup in the growth calculator (this is including all LE growths, to give you an idea of how literally all they have going for them is res)

TLDR Version: CM leads to...

(Yes, an actual restank build I tried once)

... getting oneshot by every evoker they faced. And that's dumb.


EDIT: Turned the URL code into an IMG. Also fixed some wording I was regretting that seemed needlessly harsh.

[MegaBlues]

If you can't break an invocation, you're doing something wrong

also elemental resistance stacked with stat resistance beats all magic, cm included.

unless the magic has secondary effects but that's a whole other thing that doesn't apply to evokers at all

[Rendar]

Okay Ranlyn.

I'mma let you finish but--

I took a CM Isenshi at pointblank range to the face for 200 damage.

Also took a CM Overload to the face for 200 damage.

Also took a CM Exgalfa from a Lich with 100 WIL for 120.

I have 55 base RES. This was with only my base res and a 10% Guard. If you plan to have Resistance as a stat, and fight against an evoker. You wear Elemental Resistance because it applies before your RES is.

[Ranylyn]

MegaBlues » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:04 pm[/url]"]If you can't break an invocation, you're doing something wrong

also elemental resistance stacked with stat resistance beats all magic, cm included.

unless the magic has secondary effects but that's a whole other thing that doesn't apply to evokers at all

1) Admittedly, this testing was back before Invocations became easier to break, but try reliably breaking invocations with those offenses unless you can inflict silence or knockdown. Sure, invocations can break on a Shock Collar if you're ridiculously unlucky, but it's actually more likely to not get them broken on 80 damage.

2) Because turning a 500+ damage Vydel into a 250 is the exact same as turning a 60 damage Typhur into 30. Boo hoo. I'm soooo weeeeak as an evoker~!

3) ... um, are you actually trying to say Evokers don't have secondary effects? Please, PLEASE clarify what you mean, because... what. I don't even. Sure, not all their spells do, but yes, they definitely have access to some decently potent secondary effects.


Also

I have 55 base RES. This was with only my base res and a 10% Guard. If you plan to have Resistance as a stat, and fight against an evoker. You wear Elemental Resistance because it applies before your RES is.

This is so obvious there's no need to post it. What is also so obvious there's no need to post it is that getting good elemental resist gear comes entirely down to RNG. Clearly I wasn't using a perfect 15/15/15/15 COMC, etc, and that not everyone can be expected to carry high elemental resistance. But hey, since you're stating the obvious, so will I.

[MegaBlues]

yes, turning someone's 15M attack into 250 damage is a lot, especially when evokers have, really, no utility or survivability other than kill the other guy harder

going through evokers' spells, they can:

sear - more damage
libgrande - ice tiles (lol)
ryemei - more damage, maybe
magaisendo - nothing
wind slasher - more damage

exgalfa - more, or less, damage
intensify cold - 25% ice weakness (the biggest 'utility' they have in a spell that isnt more damage)
overload- MORE DAMAGE
isenshi - MORE DAMAGE
vydel - move them


so, yeah. not really many secondary effects there. not ones that bypass having their big setup damage nullified, and/or having their damage nullified in the first place

but that's my last post on this topic, i'm derailing