[Chaos]

Rendar » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:31 pm[/url]"]Because then what is the point of using a single shot gun compared to a multi shot gun?

Multi Shot guns would get the same bonus as the single shot, and get to apply their basic effect numerous times. They would also benefit more from thunder drive (or whatever it's name is), to get their bonus shell effect every single turn. They run into a few counters (namely the hard counters in the form of "fuck you gunners&quot that are pushing to be nerfed. A single shot gunner would get all the negatives of being a single shot gun, but none of the current benefits that were given to single-shot gunners to make them actually work properly and look decent on paper.

I think you're greatly exaggerating what Main Class restriction does. It would simply mean that, at this time, very certain base class skills would not work with it anymore. (Or in the case of certain Promoted Class skills, would only work at 50%) Right now, there is very little that a Main Class MG with a Single Shot build would lose, if anything at all. Perhaps you can actually provide the list of 'benefits' they'll lose in this change, because what you're presenting is a whole lot of generalization with no concrete evidence to back it up.

P.S. I'm of the mind that Akimbo should share the Main Class restriction with One Overcharge, but that's a discussion for a different type of topic.

[Kameron8]

Chaos » Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:59 am[/url]"]#1: Cripple Leg already faces adversity from movement skills and Cleanse Body, so there's no reason to make a skill with enough workarounds even worse. I'm not too convinced on making Cripple Arm only half-effective against the very people it's made to work best against.

#2: I don't see anything wrong with this nerf.

#3: As long as it doesn't nerf the damage part, sure.

#4: To be honest, I'd like to see One Overcharge become Main Class and see how it works from there first.

To bring this back on topic and respond to these,

1: Martial Artists are naturally strong against Archers, so there is very little to be done about cleanse body and Protection From Arrows invalidating cripple skills from all but the most hit-stacking of bowmen. However, I -- and many others -- believe you are vastly undervaluing the strength of removing a hand slot and reducing move. For 3 momentum, you can strip someone of an entire class if their skills require the weapon in the sub weapon slot. For 3 momentum, you can reduce non-speedsters movement to 1 if they happen to play the select few classes without alternate movement. Archers naturally have a TON of critical chance, but this at least gives those without a bazillion dodge a fighting chance.

3: No change to the damage, that is correct.

4: The solution to every grossly overpowered outlier cannot be to make it main class only. I'm sorry, it works for some things, but I know I'm not alone when I say we REALLY don't want to just start tagging things with 'Main Class Only' and moving on with our lives. Sonic Shell is miles ahead of every other shell in power when looked at from a general point of view, and removing hesitation and AoE knockdown STILL leaves it in a spot where it will likely be the best overall shell for gunners.

[Rendar]

Please. The Sonic Shell and Celsius Shell is pain.

NERFFFFF ITTTTTTTTT

48% Hesitation
96+ unresistable Damage
Silence
Knockdown.

How is this even acceptable?

[Kameron8]

Bumping this thread once again. Gunners still have the highest hit and dodge in the game because of fortune wind and focused mind, and have a shell that has no counters and far too many bonuses. Sonic shell and Fortune Wind still very much need to be toned down.

[Autumn]

I am quite sick of seeing Sonic Shell literally everywhere, Fortune wind shuts down any hit chance, I support everything in this thread.

[Egil]

Spoops » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:13 am[/url]"]I am quite sick of seeing Sonic Shell literally everywhere, Fortune wind shuts down any hit chance, I support everything in this thread.

There are a couple of things that counter Sonic Shell (Screamer, Martial Artist/Monk, etc) and plenty of ways to get around Fortune Winds (having great hit anyway, auto-hits, etc). I've been defeated numerous times in fights where I only use Sonic Shell and have popped Fortune Winds continually, because those two things aren't game breaking. This isn't to say that these two shouldn't be nerfed solely because there are much stronger things out there- my point is that Sonic Shell does have counters and Fortune Winds isn't an auto-win. Thus, the premise for nerfing those two are null, and there need to be better reasons to justify nerfing them.

In my mind, something 'OP' enables you to win constantly. I've lost too many times to be told that my strongest shell is going to be nerfed simply because some builds can't handle it well. If you want to see less of Sonic Shell, then make the other shells more worthwhile (seriously, what the fuck is up with Vamp Shell?????) and if you don't want Fortune Winds to be as prevalent, you can make it cost more FP to cast. That's about all I can see logically happening.

[NaitoPsych]

Just because you were defeated doesn't make them balanced. The only reason you were beaten was because Romek is braindead and straight up trash, garbage, MANURE in his strategy that anyone who has the means to prepare for it usually does so before fighting you. Otherwise they'd be Sonic Shell KD spammed into four momentum, hesitated and practically a sitting duck.

As for 'make other shells more worthwhile' They are worthwhile, except Celsius being also unbalanced and maybe Blaze being neigh-useless PvP wise, but other than that they're pretty decent shells with good effects they don't need to be jacked up to Sonic Shell-level broken. That's neither smart nor fair and balanced which is what we're going for here.

Support for thread.

[Slydria]

Sonic Shell is one of the most ridiculous things in the game. It simply does way too much for one action. The effectiveness of it is ghastly with One Overcharge.

- 48% Hesitation on Hit for 3 Rounds. (48% chance to stop your basic attacks or basic attack skills.)
- Silence for 3 Rounds. (Forces casters to Screamer, Silent Prayer or Throatopener.)
- Knocks down all enemies within 4 Range. (Lose 3M or be a Martial Artist.)
- Deals 96 Sound Damage that ignores RES to all enemies in 4 Range. (Getting a Resist! on Sound takes some serious stacking so unless you're Guarding, you're gonna feel it.)

And that's on top of whatever else your gun is doing. Charged Excel Sniper? Cripple Arm? Cripple Leg? Whatever floats your boat.

[Zakizo]

I only use Sonic Shell on my MGs, and that probably shouldn't be the case. I'd be more constructive, but all of the points I could possibly make about it have already been made.

The Cripple skills I've had a strong beef with ever since they were added due to the effects being guaranteed on hit, despite how utterly crippling (pun intended) they are. I support all proposed nerfs, but especially these.

[Rendar]

Slydria » Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:28 pm[/url]"]Sonic Shell is one of the most ridiculous things in the game. It simply does way too much for one action. The effectiveness of it is ghastly with One Overcharge.

- 48% Hesitation on Hit for 3 Rounds. (48% chance to stop your basic attacks or basic attack skills.)
- Silence for 3 Rounds. (Forces casters to Screamer, Silent Prayer or Throatopener.)
- Knocks down all enemies within 4 Range. (Lose 3M or be a Martial Artist.)
- Deals 96 Sound Damage that ignores RES to all enemies in 4 Range. (Getting a Resist! on Sound takes some serious stacking so unless you're Guarding, you're gonna feel it.)

And that's on top of whatever else your gun is doing. Charged Excel Sniper? Cripple Arm? Cripple Leg? Whatever floats your boat.

To expand on this...

So. Let's break down just who sonic shell fucks over.

Basic Attackers ((Gunners, Archers[most of the time], Duelists, Some BKs, Most stabby rogues))
Mages ((Silence forces 3M or 1M and 10% of your HP to cleanse an effect that can be spammed semi-efficiently. It will always hit for 3 rounds whether OC or not))
KD ((Screws everyone up, even people who are guarding. Monks still get messed up by this))
96 sound damage. (This just flat out penetrates tanks and everyone else. It will take outa bout 25% of your HP in one hit)).

Tag in things like Cripple Arm/Cripple Leg against poor tanks who already have trouble against gunners, and you make things worse because they take debilitating amounts of status effects.

You want to know how three people took on two dullahan monk doomwalls of regen ((One being Tedric))? Cripple Arm. They can no longer GUARD. Null Shell, they lose any guard status they had. Proceed to hammer them repeatedly while you keep them interferenced to have a large level of HP regained tossed away. Tag this along say... Sonic Shell.. which proceeds to cause 96 unresistable damage... or celsius shell for a ton more ((due to null shell)). It's painful.


EDIT:

Also. Just because Romek loses to people, doesn't mean MG isn't stupid broken with Sonic Shell. My fights between him and Rhinoa devolve into who can get within range first. If I start within basic-shooting range for him.. Romek instantly wins the fight. If I start a decent distance away ((Since I don't sonic shell with her)), I can buff my bow attacks up to be able to shoot you across the field because #Logic.