[MakeshiftWalrus]

Its metagaming and godmodding to outright kill him. If you don't let him decide HIS own characters fate himself, that is itself godmodding.

It should be up to him if his character makes a dashing escape or disappears in the night. Its up to Airide to justify how his character survived.

You're looking at it in an irrational manner. What you're claiming is simply wrong. Of course, Krono is allowed to do exactly as he pleases to, but should never, -ever- expect the world not to react at the things he does. As I've now stated many, many times, there will be consequences for actions.

Krono's arrest was never touched by either definition. And he never did anything to prevent it. That the consequence for such, among the various crimes he has committed, is execution? Simply learn to accept it. Because, as I also mentioned previously, letting him escape without any actual reason is exactly the right use of meta-gaming and god-modding.

Well shall we go down the list of the crap Krono was arrested for? Cause we might as well get the bullshit out of the way first, and I do mean the bullshit arrest:

• Making a threat: Its one thing to make a treat against someone's life and it's one thing to act upon it. Of course there was no action being made nor was there going to be, but that's just one arrest, I have a few more.

Death threats are -very illegal- in real life. And yes. This -can- be compared to real life, because that's what the law system is based on, along common sense.

• Stopping a fight in Cellsvich: Allow me to give a little insite on this one. Two nubs fighting in the middle of Cellsvich without an OOC tag is clearly going to be taken IC, right? Right, then you have Sarah's formal guard Fiona AFKing near the billboard (keep this in mind while because a lot of the guards do this, especially in the arena) and I had no knowledge of their being an active guard in the arena, so Krono stepped in to stop it himself. After which, Fiona suddenly wakes up and Spo shows up and they arrest Krono. As for the other two they left.

AFK guards is an issue, yes, I agree. But Krono still very much deserved to be arrested for it. Vigilantism is also very illegal, no matter the intention.

• A sticker on a book: This is just flat out stupod.

You don't mention the story behind it. The sticker in question was largely anti-guard propaganda, which along with Krono harassing an Imperial Captain warranted him a trip behind bars.

• The mask: Kronos was warned about this, yes, but lets make a few key facts:

First: Fuck that event excuse. Because lets get something straight, in the fee IC years this occurred you'd THINK the god damn guards would get their thumbs up their asses and get better defense, right? So that's null and void.

Second: The reason why Cellsvich doesn't get attacked is due to it being protected by a strong magic and the only reason to bypass this is with Air's passage papers.

Third: Everyone saw Krono do this even the god damn incompetent NPC guards, and unless Krono attacked, he didn't. In fact he was the one who was attacked, and a multitude of people saw this, hell when Eden went to get the guards his words were: "Krono is being attacked."

First, they did. The ruling on the mask itself is a good example of the paranoia the event caused.

Second, that's just flat out wrong.

Third, the situation is dumb. I agree. But again, consequences. He was warned of it and made a poor mistake.

[iStabOreos]

I fail to see how it can be considered meta-gaming and I was under the impression everyone posting on here was aware of the fact GMs' say preceeds the rules, but are still held accountable for their own actions when they do so.

Letting him just escape or 'disappear' because he wants to is godmodding itself.

No no Diz, it's godmodding if it something like "Tattooed Butler disappeared without a trace."

Or some shit, you don't realize this is completely IC if the escape from the fort, or better yet if it was inescapable in the first damn place.

[Exxy]

Finally, if Krono is to be executed, I think there should be an IC event for it, I think he deserves a chance to escape, keep his character alive, and live in Law's End as a branded criminal for life, this is a roleplaying game. . .

From what I've been made to believe, this is still TBA. It doesn't help when 80% of the people in this outcry fly off the handle and assume things, though.

ALSO, I would like to state that people have ICly responded to the >OOC< declaration of his character being executed (because of mass speculation and assumption of the fact in Public Chat Channels), as there's been no IC notice of this YET. This type of behavior does NOT help the situation.

EDIT: Personally, I've made the argument -for- it to be public. This will also be my last post on this thread topic; although I have my own opinions I haven't really gone over in this thread, if Chaos or Dev wants to hear them they can ask from PMs. At this point it's clear most are taking this into an opportunistic attack because they don't like how it's going, I'm pretty sure -no one- read my posts.

[iStabOreos]

Its metagaming and godmodding to outright kill him. If you don't let him decide HIS own characters fate himself, that is itself godmodding.

It should be up to him if his character makes a dashing escape or disappears in the night. Its up to Airide to justify how his character survived.

You're looking at it in an irrational manner. What you're claiming is simply wrong. Of course, Krono is allowed to do exactly as he pleases to, but should never, -ever- expect the world not to react at the things he does. As I've now stated many, many times, there will be consequences for actions.

Krono's arrest was never touched by either definition. And he never did anything to prevent it. That the consequence for such, among the various crimes he has committed, is execution? Simply learn to accept it. Because, as I also mentioned previously, letting him escape without any actual reason is exactly the right use of meta-gaming and god-modding.

Well shall we go down the list of the crap Krono was arrested for? Cause we might as well get the bullshit out of the way first, and I do mean the bullshit arrest:

• Making a threat: Its one thing to make a treat against someone's life and it's one thing to act upon it. Of course there was no action being made nor was there going to be, but that's just one arrest, I have a few more.

Death threats are -very illegal- in real life. And yes. This -can- be compared to real life, because that's what the law system is based on, along common sense.

• Stopping a fight in Cellsvich: Allow me to give a little insite on this one. Two nubs fighting in the middle of Cellsvich without an OOC tag is clearly going to be taken IC, right? Right, then you have Sarah's formal guard Fiona AFKing near the billboard (keep this in mind while because a lot of the guards do this, especially in the arena) and I had no knowledge of their being an active guard in the arena, so Krono stepped in to stop it himself. After which, Fiona suddenly wakes up and Spo shows up and they arrest Krono. As for the other two they left.

AFK guards is an issue, yes, I agree. But Krono still very much deserved to be arrested for it. Vigilantism is also very illegal, no matter the intention.

• A sticker on a book: This is just flat out stupod.

You don't mention the story behind it. The sticker in question was largely anti-guard propaganda, which along with Krono harassing an Imperial Captain warranted him a trip behind bars.

• The mask: Kronos was warned about this, yes, but lets make a few key facts:

First: Fuck that event excuse. Because lets get something straight, in the fee IC years this occurred you'd THINK the god damn guards would get their thumbs up their asses and get better defense, right? So that's null and void.

Second: The reason why Cellsvich doesn't get attacked is due to it being protected by a strong magic and the only reason to bypass this is with Air's passage papers.

Third: Everyone saw Krono do this even the god damn incompetent NPC guards, and unless Krono attacked, he didn't. In fact he was the one who was attacked, and a multitude of people saw this, hell when Eden went to get the guards his words were: "Krono is being attacked."

First, they did. The ruling on the mask itself is a good example of the paranoia the event caused.

Second, that's just flat out wrong.

Third, the situation is dumb. I agree. But again, consequences. He was warned of it and made a poor mistake.

For all of this, here's my retort where are the laws stated? Because yes, common sense is a thing but also Sigrogana specific laws are also a thing, and last I check they were never posted.

[K Peculier]

To play devil's advocate here. Lolzy's and Airide's arguments and points listed are very, very easy to attack and if I was biased towards the ruling of the guards this is a literal goldmine for me due to the unintentional holes I could pick.

No offense to Lolzy or Airide, but you're shooting yourselves in the foot with some of these arguments.

To summarize the events leading up to this in very simple words and without bias --

-Krono puts on a night mask ic'ly.
-Papillons who really hate spatials freak out and attack Krono.
-Krono does not fight back. Guards tell Krono and the papillons to come to the fort without asking the witnesses for the full story.
-Krono is now going to get executed.

Now for my opinion and my own bias with all this. Because I know Airide and am friends with his character Krono ic'ly, it is likely that I will be biased. But looking at this from a rational standpoint, my opinion that the general concensus we're giving Airide here is a tad excessive. Telling Airide that he just has to suck up to the consequences when clearly, the events that lead to this should not have been a full-blown execution if we look at this from an ooc standpoint.

Now then, lets separate ic and ooc from each other. Ic'ly the guards can do whatever they want, even if its 'fair' or not. Because this is all happening ic'ly. I'm perfectly fine with it happening in character and IN-GAME.

What is -NOT OK- is if this is swept under a rug out of the game because the guards don't want to deal with the repercussions of holding an in-game execution for Krono. This is avoiding roleplay entirely in favor of avoiding conflict inside a roleplaying game. This is letting OOC making decisions here.

My final example is this, and I urge empathy in this respect.

You're a guard. Whether you're a 'good' or 'bad' guard does not matter. You find out that someone who has friends got arrested and is destined for execution. Whether or not that 'criminal' is actually innocent or guilty, you'll probably still do your job or voice your opinion or even do something about it.

Now here's the deal-breaker. If you're avoiding the fact that this 'criminal' has friends that would be willing to protest or even fight for his freedom because it would be troubling to your character IN-GAME, then you're mixing OOC feelings and bias into your character already.

Don't hide behind GM power to have the final say. Having a GM that OOC'LY kills off Airide's character is the anti-thesis of us having an excellent roleplaying-platform.

Conclusion: Have an IC event for it. This happened IC'ly. Deal with it. IN-GAME.

[Lolzytripd]

The guard system is flawed needs retooled, the empire is unrealistic needs expanded upon, the guard commander is bullshit overpowered and cheating and chaos should be forced to make it fair and normal if only slightly stronger than a player. In the lore the onigans were taken prisoner and not executed by the empire. The fact that karatens private mage school bows to the guards and they try to use it as if its the only means of travel to tell people they can't run off the continent is bullshit. The fact fort arjav is played out to be super unescapable jail.


I'm all for IC consequences and respecting the world. But the current state of how things are portrayed is excessive and grimdark.

[MakeshiftWalrus]

My final example is this, and I urge empathy in this respect.

You're a guard. Whether you're a 'good' or 'bad' guard does not matter. You find out that someone who has friends got arrested and is destined for execution. Whether or not that 'criminal' is actually innocent or guilty, you'll probably still do your job or voice your opinion or even do something about it.

Now here's the deal-breaker. If you're avoiding the fact that this 'criminal' has friends that would be willing to protest or even fight for his freedom because it would be troubling to your character IN-GAME, then you're mixing OOC feelings and bias into your character already.

Don't hide behind GM power to have the final say. Having a GM that OOC'LY kills off Airide's character is the anti-thesis of us having an excellent roleplaying-platform.

Conclusion: Have an IC event for it. This happened IC'ly. Deal with it. IN-GAME.

I fully agree with this sentiment. A public execution would be an amazing (and quite possibly horrifying) catalyst for one of the largest messes we've seen in-game. I for one would love to see it happen. To see a crowd of people rise up to attempt to save Krono. I disagree with the notion of a character being killed flatly without any chance off-screen, as much as the ordinary person does, because -that- would be unfair.

[Lolzytripd]

I don't trust the authenticity or fairness of any execution event that chaos himself orchestrates, I feel it would be unfair to airide's right to see his character through it.

the way he's created the guard commander is the same degree of bullshit powergaming godmodding Ryu abused back in SL1


HOW CAN I TRUST A SYSTEM RAN BY A PERSON I THOUGHT OF AS A DECENT PERSON WHEN MY TRUST IS SHATTERED BY THEM MAKING THE SAME GOD DAMN MISTAKES.

I loudly touted the horns for chaos to become a gm back in sl1.


This game means alot to me, this community means alot to me, this community got me through the deaths of a third of my family stolen from me by cancer, now I see this same cancer corrupting those I truly respected as model members of the community.

[Trexmaster]

Its metagaming and godmodding to outright kill him. If you don't let him decide HIS own characters fate himself, that is itself godmodding.

It should be up to him if his character makes a dashing escape or disappears in the night. Its up to Airide to justify how his character survived.

What you just described would be god-modding if he could simply decide to be free, and it happened. In situations of conflict, automatically succeeding is god-modding. It's not impossible some sort of compromise could be reached but, I don't see the odds being very good.

maybe the issue is that the lore and the guards need be tweaked to be less murdery. more life in prison

the playerbase should be allowed to play in the setting of their choice.

Except it already is. The Guard as it stands, compared to how the Empire is portrayed, is -very- unlikely to drop death sentences, requiring a warning to be handed out before it can even be considered. As for life in prison vs death, I honestly don't know how that'd be handled. I wouldn't be opposed to that being considered alongside execution for permanent punishments, but that's up to people who aren't me.

Diz the arguement here is that the guards are too harsh, the system is too harsh, that the gms should not have the right to outright kill your character.

The ic reasoning is shallow and immersiveless

You cant escape jail because its unbreakable

You cant escape execution because guards in arjav are unbeatable.

thats god modding.

I'm not seeing how they're too harsh here, honestly. Yeah, chopping his head off might be a bit much but it's after a very long time of him -constantly- getting tossed in jail, with offenses such as arson and assault. While he didn't burn down more houses this time, the fact remains he hasn't stopped doing things worth arresting him for, in the eyes of the guard.

The GMs can't force a character to die for no reason, but they're the GMs, and they generally mediate things like this. If I recall, it's required for the warning to be given first before a character can be -executed- (see: permission for the GMs to -attempt- to execute the character). Given the circumstances this is often pretty guaranteed, not because it's god-modding, but because in this case and likely all future cases, it's done by the Empire in the heart of the Empire.

There's plenty of IC reasons for the Empire and the Guard to want him axed. He's burnt a house, assaulted people, and been a general menace to the public and its defenders (ye olde sticker).

The jail isn't impenetrable, it's just -very- difficult to do so. Bloeden managed it twice, and there were no attempts since.

By yourself whilst being a prisoner in Arjav? Yeah, you probably can't solo the entire fort. Escaping death at the point of execution would be a step above just trying to escape in general, I'd imagine, in terms of difficulty. I doubt it's completely -impossible-, though the amount of effort required would be immense, or demand a very, very good plan.

If an attempt were made, and it were shot down without a chance given at all? Yeah, then that's godmodding.

In dnd which I've been playing for years, the guard commander would be the highest shit tier of stupid things ever made, no one would ever credibly treat any dm who created him and his back story with any credibility.

Its an unfair challenge, a gm/dm's role is to fairly challenge players with accomplishable goals that make that promote character growth.

Also character growth, how can krono redeem himself through character growth if the system exists to punish anyone who sways morally with inevitable death.


Edit for clarity

I'm not for gm's not being able to never kill a character, I just feel the current proccess is half assed and not involved enough, and that the player should always have the right fight it off or justify their character living.

It's hard to compare DnD to SL2. In a tabletop you've got far less people to manage, and generally they're all on the same team, or at the very least not actively against each other (if you want to be playing for long or not see your table upside down).

As for character growth--he was given plenty of chances before the straw that cut the rope on the guillotine. So it's not like he wasn't given the opportunity to change. Avoiding jail time one way or another is a pretty good way to avoid death if you're on the more gray/black side of the moral compass.

The guard system is flawed needs retooled, the empire is unrealistic needs expanded upon, the guard commander is bullshit overpowered and cheating and chaos should be forced to make it fair and normal if only slightly stronger than a player. In the lore the onigans were taken prisoner and not executed by the empire. The fact that karatens private mage school bows to the guards and they try to use it as if its the only means of travel to tell people they can't run off the continent is bullshit. The fact fort arjav is played out to be super unescapable jail.


I'm all for IC consequences and respecting the world. But the current state of how things are portrayed is excessive and grimdark.

You'll have to be a bit more clear as to how it's flawed. Right now all I'm seeing is that you disagree with the judgement here. I also don't see how the Empire is unrealistic, or, rather, I don't know what's making you say that.

The execution trend started a bit after the Onigan war if I recall correctly, so it makes sense they wouldn't start chopping all their heads off, especially considering they were allies prior to the war. There's a difference between being taken as a PoW and getting arrested, too.

The Majistra Guild just works with the authorities to help keep criminals in check, it's not impossible for criminals to opt for other forms of travel. It's just not supported mechanically (yet).

I don't trust the authenticity or fairness of any execution event that chaos himself orchestrates, I feel it would be unfair to airide's right to see his character through it.

the way he's created the guard commander is the same degree of bullshit powergaming godmodding Ryu abused back in SL1


HOW CAN I TRUST A SYSTEM RAN BY A PERSON I THOUGHT OF AS A DECENT PERSON WHEN MY TRUST IS SHATTERED BY THEM MAKING THE SAME GOD DAMN MISTAKES.

I loudly touted the horns for chaos to become a gm back in sl1.


This game means alot to me, this community means alot to me, this community got me through the deaths of a third of my family stolen from me by cancer, now I see this same cancer corrupting those I truly respected as model members of the community.

It's difficult to make it fair given the circumstances, but if an extreme enough solution was provided, it's -possible-. Probably. Ultimately it's the GMs job to handle the specifics on that, but if an attempt that isn't purely just meta-rage is made with a good enough plan, it might work.

Chaos isn't exactly renowned for balance, I'll give you that. But he's not a bad guy, and I think he's aiming to try and work on properly balancing things. Not to mention the GC's imbalance-ness isn't exactly the point here.

As for the part you added in...uh, what mistakes exactly? I think you're way overblowing the situation here, this isn't the most amazing decision ever but I can't really blame him for making the call given the circumstances.

[Flamesword1]

All I can say is that you guys are welcome to mount a rescue attempt when the time comes.