[Autumn]

In my opinion we should wait to have this discussion until Dev works on more classes. Its my humble opinion that this skill was made to be extremely powerful, because it is. Because Dev, in his current line of action seems to be looking over each class, and updating them one at a time.


I have some strong feelings on this skill, in the -CURRENT- state of the game. But I think drastic changes should perhaps be held back just a bit, to see what the next class update might have.

I disagree with that mostly, I don't like knee jerking as much as the next person but I really do think it should be very equal to Lance De Lion in its use, otherwise skewing it would simply be unfair.

However i'd also like to quickly mention a few things concerning the discussion:

• The skill should be considered a 300% SWA skill, due to the explosion double tapping for half damage if they're at least 3 tiles away from you, if it goes full range. Or anywhere nearby if you aim it at a map edge. Due to its high cd, you'd likely wait for this to be the case, either by using repel or being crafty, before firing the skill off.
  
  Dev has already nerfed three of the super broken things about the skill, so he's aware of it at least.
  (If refracted, it doesn't explode. Has a cd. Doesn't cost 3m anymore so you can't use it in the same turn as lance de lion for 500% guard break SWA damage in a turn.)
  

Still costs 3m for me, I'd much prefer it just didn't double tap with the explosion, that'd set it in line considering it deals magic damage compared to physical damage, as magic damage is harder to resist more commonly than physical damage, and the main source of its damage isn't gonna be walled by elemental resistance either.

I don't know how much good it'll serve, but here's a screenshot of the damage my SWA Stacking knight can achieve with it, with both hits, I used it against a winged guardian so that it could actually survive the damage long enough to show the secondary part.

I'd ballbark the Winged Guardian's RES to be around 20 to 25, considering the damage I dealt.

[renowner]

Oh i thought it got put to 4m like lance de lion. 3m is definitely too low for such an overwhelmingly strong move. especially if you can STILL vent petale, guard break, 500% SWA in one turn with it with both moves combined. So regardless of what changes dev has planned, i'd say that would need to be a high priority change. Heck even power gradation is still 4m I think.


And if we ARE going to continue talking bout balancing it now.

It needs to be at least:
4m
Either no explosion double tapping (Less preferable because it just feels fun to line it up right and double tap)
or
Lowered base SWA damage to 150% or 160% so that with the double tap it becomes 225% or so. Which is still quite massive.

Keep in mind it is able to be void refracted, and is a 3 tile wide AoE. Base 200% SWA for all of these things is quite substantial, as it doesn't require any wind-up like invocations or charge mind does. But still has absurd damage. And not being able to move before using it isn't much of a drawback to a move that can effectively hit 3 tiles wide, up to 9 tiles in front of you. (6 not counting explosion.) It might actually be more as I think the projectile itself is also 2 or three tiles vertically as well. so that'd be 7-10 range forward. And with how incredibly badass the move looks, compared to how quick lance de lion is.

I'd love for it to either have a really big windup like an invocation, or some sort of other drawback such as applying some form of worn out to the user. The high focus cost is reminiscent of this, I suppose.


An insta-casting 3m 300% SWA attack is pretty damn hefty. Even compared to holy spark and ghostwind.

[Grandpa]

Oh i thought it got put to 4m like lance de lion.

I'll say firstly, that this just isn't correct.


Secondly, I think it just doesn't need to double tap. The skill is comparable otherwise, I think. They both do different things, and they're supposed to. The only other change I might mention would be not allowing it to be void refractable, but that's only because it takes less setup than something like, say, kadouha.

[Hanzo]

Oh i thought it got put to 4m like lance de lion.

I'll say firstly, that this just isn't correct.


Secondly, I think it just doesn't need to double tap. The skill is comparable otherwise, I think. They both do different things, and they're supposed to. The only other change I might mention would be not allowing it to be void refractable, but that's only because it takes less setup than something like, say, kadouha.

What do you mean it takes less setup?

Now that any half-decent PvP build is tanky, you need to set up quite a few gates, and let's say you set two per turn - thus allowing you to do nothing else - you will have six gates, by the time your opponent is allowed to go trough three turns.

And that is six gates:

1.) Without you moving at all.

2.) Without setting any defenses.

Void assassins by nature, have to sacrifice defensive capabilities for offense (which is not something that most others need to do). This does not apply if they build RES, which is far from ideal since the frayed voidgates are both extremely telegraphed, as well as their dark damage being easy to resist.

Literally, your opponent skips three times, doing no damage whatsoever - and then maybe hitting you with the projectiles. This, of course, won't happen if your positioning is half-decent.

So to conclude, no, it is not easier to set up than a kadouha.

Edit: And the above of course, applies only if you start first.

[Lonestar]

So to conclude, no, it is not easier to set up than a kadouha.

Edit: And the above of course, applies only if you start first.

Just the fact that you need to Power-Up fully, which takes one turn to do so, differently from Eclair Lacroix which requires no setup at all to throw it out is what Grandpa means. Your arguement is too focused on Voidgates itself rather than the actual skill, meaning that yes, Kadouha has more setup than Eclair Lacroix.

[Hanzo]

So to conclude, no, it is not easier to set up than a kadouha.

Edit: And the above of course, applies only if you start first.

Just the fact that you need to Power-Up fully, which takes one turn to do so, differently from Eclair Lacroix which requires no setup at all to throw it out is what Grandpa means. Your arguement is too focused on Voidgates itself rather than the actual skill, meaning that yes, Kadouha has more setup than Eclair Lacroix.

Her argument was that it should not be able to be refracted - and in that sense, we look at the process that makes one able to refract Eclair, and make use of it.

The ordeal of charging up a Kadouha, is less demanding, than the process of, as stated above, refracting a meaningful Eclair. We are not talking about the skills themselves, but a charged Kadouha vs Refracted Eclair.

So in the context of the discussion, no, a Kadouha has significantly less of a setup.

[Lonestar]

In that case, I'm going to have to still have to agree that heavy-scaling skills, such as Lacroix or even Kadouha shouldn't be Void Refracted at all. That change to VAs has been highly abusable to simply deliver a large burst of damage after setup (To which I highly hate), and since this isn't a Kadouha thread, my opinion will be kept to Lacroix alone here.

[Autumn]

Are void gates even such an issue you can't just slap a sanctuary over them or destroy them with magaisendo/terra strike? Cutting VA at its source (should) be near as common as cutting an evoker at its source.

[Lonestar]

Not when there's more than double ways of keeping an Evoker at bay compared to a VA and their Voidgates, but even so this isn't really a thread about them, so I'll remain by my agreement about heavy-scaling projectiles not being able to interact with them.

[Snake]

The issue is not Elcair Lacroix, just its usage with Voidgates.

Which, should be a completely different thread. Further discussing about this 'here' will be just plain stupidity and a waste of time, as the skill was already addressed by Dev.

In which reminds me, why isn't this locked again?