[EenKogNeeto]

>>Personally, if someone wants to wear a Heart of Stone to prevent such a potential risk, then that's the same as for kitting for something else a slight bit niche. If someone wants to build for charm, it's my fault for not building status resistance, bringing some form of extra ways to combat it or really, anything to counter it as a whole.

The alternative option, provided you aren't one of the two classes with charm clears, is to lose two to three rounds worth of damage every four rounds. And even then if you prevent it you must pay the tax of an entire accessory slot because someone /might/ use a trait point on blow kiss.

Saying 'Just build status resist' is false, as I said in my post its easy to get 160-220% Inflict on it because of the unarmored part for Blow Kiss, and in general its more likely they'll have inflict than you'll have resist. Can't afford 30 points of faith on every build. Though yes a lot of people neglect status res, this aint the solution.


>>make your fancy build you have in mind work with a Shaitan
>>play Magic Gunner,
>>commonly accessible through items or otherwise (doubly so if it's a Foot or Accessory Slot) should just y'know.Use them or risk getting fucked by such things.
>>You use a Heart of Stone. Even I use one. I rarely run into Charmers but when I do? People realize it does nothing since they act as if the item itself doesn't exist.

Not everyone wants to sacrifice their viability in serious PVP for immunity to three admittedly annoying statuses, and that' speaking purely mechanically. Roleplay wise there's definitely not much enjoyment to be had from every charcter needing to be a shaitan.

The characters I want to roleplay are by and large not going to carry a gun around just so they can avoid getting winked at.

Creating a tax of a accessory slot on every single character is not a way to balance something. Just like how 'Just use cleanse potion' Is not a valid response. Balance should be done based on no equipment, preventatives should be optional not mandatory

>>all i'm seeing is "this sounds really powerful, and charm as a whole fucks people over, so let's weaken it a bit." >

Doesn't just sound, I run it in the arena and have only lost once to a summoner and even that was just because I wasn't going to lunar lunatism IC for that.
You can effectively pick anyone and go 'You can't hurt me for two turns' Then do whatever you want, be it meditate, heal, charge mind and HSDW, so on.

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Idk why a year+ old thread is being bumped but I don't find charm to be an issue as long as damage ticks it down, since blow kiss has a cooldown. And Heart of Stone currently exists to help against it if people really are abusing it on certain characters.

It just gives less value to Heart of Stone to nerf it even.

Its almost like I specifically said in my post that it had been a year with no changes and that all the complaints, which I reiterated again just for clarity, were still valid and even worse than they were originally or something. Obviously I should have made a new thread with the same content right?

Damage lowers its duration yes, but taking two hundred damage while only being able to deal thirty is a bit painful. In all my uses of it I've never done less than three hundred damage before it wore off, and never taken more than 100 during its duration.
Expecting everyone to know and then metagame that X is going to use charm is a bit absurd and not a healthy idea to plan for.

Heart of stone will always be useful, It disables all charm mechanics entirely without revealing that they are disabled to your enemy. It lets you fake the charm so they are lulled into a false sense of security, only to do full damage to them despite the floating hearts. Or to ignore them getting shto in the head when they try to hide behind you. Nerfing charms in long battles won't make it worthless by any means, especially if the charm resistance wears off later in the fight or something. The idea is to make it not mandatory.

[Mr.SmileGod]

Charm already doesn't seem mandatory, really. People use it, but I don't see it used in every fight. If it were really a problem, again, scaling changes would do the trick? But as it is, given that the sources are limited, it is removed via damage, etc? I really don't feel like any of what you're suggesting is strictly necessary. Not only that, but in an attempt to strike at high charm values, you'd be damaging already low ones. Ones like the enchant that nobody uses as-is, with what... 15% charm? Or the charm-on-crit tome?

I just don't think it's necessary, honestly.

[Autumn]

Current methods of applying charm have some seriously build-altering taxes placed upon them so you don't see them terribly commonly, if its an issue with larger leveled charms like Blow Kiss, then isn't that an issue with Blow Kiss and not with charm?

There are as well, methods of getting rid of charm via cleanses or class skills offered from BK or MG, as well as an entire race to counter it. Not even mentioning the item given how much it already has been addressed.

[EenKogNeeto]

Charm already doesn't seem mandatory, really. People use it, but I don't see it used in every fight. If it were really a problem, again, scaling changes would do the trick? But as it is, given that the sources are limited, it is removed via damage, etc? I really don't feel like any of what you're suggesting is strictly necessary. Not only that, but in an attempt to strike at high charm values, you'd be damaging already low ones. Ones like the enchant that nobody uses as-is, with what... 15% charm? Or the charm-on-crit tome?

I just don't think it's necessary, honestly.

Charm isn't mandatory, Having a stone heart is for being able to deal damage. Also read the posts cause I've covered all of this already and (both of) you don't seem to have read anything before posting. Nerfing the upper level would enable lower levels to be looked at. As is though, most sources of charm aside from Blow Kiss are infinite and could use looking at, just because I'm the only person using them doesn't mean they are balanced.

Current methods of applying charm have some seriously build-altering taxes placed upon them so you don't see them terribly commonly, if its an issue with larger leveled charms like Blow Kiss, then isn't that an issue with Blow Kiss and not with charm?

There are as well, methods of getting rid of charm via cleanses or class skills offered from BK or MG, as well as an entire race to counter it. Not even mentioning the item given how much it already has been addressed.

Most sources of charm aside from Blow Kiss are infinite or passive and could use looking at, just because I'm the only person using them doesn't mean they are balanced. Theres nothing build altering about it, Unless you consider putting 10 points in guile to unlock the single best defensive thing in the game as build destroying. The issue is with any repeatable charm, which is every charm in the game aside from sweet leaf. Read the posts. I don't want to repeat the same thing about BK and MG and Shaitans for the tenth time. Balance should not be done based on everyone being the same race. It's aggregating how people just keep repeating this same thing. 'Just play shaitan lol' What if my character isn't a shaitan? 

Im pretty sure I covered this in an earlier post but I'll cover it again for the second page, I did this build /before/ blow kiss and it was still just as strong using Wink for a perma 30% reduction to enemy damage. Not as godlike, but still very hard to play against.

[Autumn]

Honestly it feels like you vastly overestimate how strong lvl 30 or below charm actually is, sure blow kiss is terribly strong but that can be adjusted to some reasonable, but using wink on someone is like using a worse wraithguard.

[FatherCrixius]

Blow kiss = 3m 30% DR and a force off of cardinals if allies don't want to be hit. Requires a stat inflict, requires invested points into will, gui, ski and or san if your that twink cat race. Lasts longer than a guard.
Guard = 3m for 30% DR.

Calling it the 'Single best defensive skill' is a bit rich given that it doesn't effect a race outright, requires invested ski to reliably inflict on builds, applies to only one person, and is momentum lost if you fail the inflict.

Because of this it's only really oppressive if your stacking it on top of other defensive shittu, such as Kiting Hexers or something similar. If you want to target the people who benefit most from this sort of skill, you'll need to do some funky shit to prevent evokers and other burst skills from inflicting you with it, then charging up a one CM Isenshi while you anemically slap their 70DR cheeks. Most builds won't have the status resistance to 100% ignore the inflict, or have the ability to guard in retaliation. I don't really see why this thread exists, given that I've been charmed maybe two or three times with blow kiss?