[Balor]

About Dev's comment about Crit ignoring armor, it just dawns on me that if we were to follow through with that, then guns might need to be adjusted as well. Since that was one of the gun's gimmicks. Doing so will give people a lot fewer person no reason to run them outside of MG.

Doesn't this mean we might need to give them something new in return?

I wouldn't necessarily think so? Guns tend to be tied to magic gunner which loads them with a plethora of tools that they can use, and they benefit from range. If anything it'd likely be shifts or adjustments to magic gunner? Maybe a new barrel for pistols? I still think guns will have a niche even with the changes.

As for Sawrocks post. I don't agree on the defense, but I could use some netflix.

However I'd like for this thread to remain focused on the change of the equation and or Dev's posted idea. Not that I dislike the discussion, but I don't want to get into def/res reworks or potential gun reworks. When we need to first address critical hits.

[Fern]

I don't think changing the way DEF or RES work will do much good in general. I also want a Netflix account though.
 
But on a more serious note, Critical Hits being made to ignore armor as a whole would likely mean that guns would need a little something more going for them, since that was their core deal when it came to damage (before people discovered flat Power shenanigans, which as far as I understand Dev didn't really ever intend it to work that way to begin with.)
 
Guns in general are pretty jank, and I'm not talking about Magic Gunner specifically so much as the way firearms work mechanically. Though that's an entirely different beast of its own.
 
I do think people will still use Magic Gunner and the like, though, since realistically guns will still be useful in that regard. They'd just not be unique when it comes to the damage formula anymore.

[K Peculier]

basic attack buff good
magic bad

[Miller]

Criticals ignoring armor would be a godsend but another thing that I've noticed is that there has been no mention of flat damage modifiers in this thread like claret call. Their position in the damage calculation determines a fair amount of damage similarly to how armor's position in the calculation matters.

I haven't really tested it significantly to understand where it places but it's still something to note, since the damage gain wouldn't be overly substantial if it just ignored armor depending on it's placement in damage calculation.

Aside from that. buff criticals :crab:

[Balor]

Criticals ignoring armor would be a godsend but another thing that I've noticed is that there has been no mention of flat damage modifiers in this thread like claret call. Their position in the damage calculation determines a fair amount of damage similarly to how armor's position in the calculation matters.

I haven't really tested it significantly to understand where it places but it's still something to note, since the damage gain wouldn't be overly substantial if it just ignored armor depending on it's placement in damage calculation.

Aside from that. buff criticals :crab:

Claret Call ignored armor. So 1:1 it'd be the same post critical buff. We're unsure where things like hunted fall in the calculations however but I'll grab some friends later to test.

BIG EDIT: Conceptually in the original equation Claret Call, Hunters Wind, Absolute Death, etc. All apply after armor but before Bonus Resistances. So before Evasion Procs, Black Knight, Guard, Shield Soldier Passive etc.

[Snake]

Critical Hits ignoring Armor? Initially I thought 'pog!' but I came to realize. Some adjustments to the overall game will be necessary in answer to that.

- Black Knight for once, could use its original Critical Evade back. Other classes could have creative ways to increase their Critical Evade or Critical Hit, since it's so important now.
- If your raw Physical Defense is now your only bet against damage from Critical Hits, then things like Burn and Rampaging have to be nerfed slightly. Or else building for defense will be meaningless if whatever you invest and gain from bonuses is just scrapped off so easily. It's like giving every character in the world mini-Buster Cannons and saying 'this is fair and balanced, just dodge lmao' when they have no more than 3 CEL and 44 LUC.
- Fleur and Duelist will now be more meta than before, especially if Ghost is now only adding more damage to them. Claret Call was their way of 'ignoring armor', now they'll be able to ignore armor AND deal up to bonus 80 damage every slap close to a graveyard. I'd be the first advocate against them in this case. Basic Hit Kensei can crack a root beer because pretty much it's all they needed out of crit buffs. But Ghost's only going to become superior overall.
- Bows are now superior guns, since they CAN and WILL critically hit you no matter what you do, while not suffering from low scaling or range issues.
- People can get 100% Critical Hit too easy. People can't get 100% Critical Evade without shooting themselves in the foot, or being a Priest/FAI-based Mage.

[Miller]

Just to clarify on a few matters after some extensive testing and confirming with a few others with the math.

Currently Critical Modifiers are /before/ armor rather than after, this may have been stealth changed at some point but I've been consistently getting the correct value with a formula that resembles.

((SWA + FLAT DAMAGE) * Critical Mod * DEF/RES Damage Reduction * Elemental Resistance - Armor) * Other DRs/Damage Boosts.

I'm aware that Dev has stated the opposite in the past, but the math has been proving it to be otherwise.

The order of multiplicative modifiers do not matter too much in the damage formula but the position of armor and flat damage modifiers matter significantly.


What does this mean? You might ask.

Ignoring armor would only result in a damage gain equal to roughly (Armor * Non-Stat DRs * Damage Modifiers)

Assuming you have a heavy armor tank with roughly 22 armor and you apply 17% hunted against their indomitable(20% DR).
22 * 1.17 * 0.8 = 20.5 (Rounded down to 20).

Assuming you have a unarmored loser with roughly 8 armor and you apply 17% hunted against their weathered body (10% DR).
8 * 1.17 * 0.9 = 8.4 (This would be rounded down to 8).

You'd gain roughly +20 damage per hit against an armored opponent and +8 against unarmored opponents, while it seems insignificant on paper. It'd add up to +60 on a full duelist combo against heavy armor and +24 against an average unarmored loser.


The benefits of ignoring armor on hit.
It shouldn't need to be stated as it's obvious but light armor/heavy armor tanks would take more damage with this change from basics than unarmored line ups, class bonus DRs like indomitable, weathered body and bulwark still help with reducing the damage gained from this change.

The Bad
Flank's bonus damage penetration would be rendered pointless outside of non-critical hits.
Gun's would lose a bit of their edge, but they're due for a revamp.


Potential Suggestions
A) Ignore armor on critical hits as a way to ramp up basic hits.
B) Add armor penetration to guile, 1 per 5 points or 2 per 5 points should add more value to the stat. (8 or 16 at 40 guile)
C) Add more ways for basic hitters to reduce armor, perhaps via rampaging or another status effect.

[Autumn]

Critical Hits ignoring Armor? Initially I thought 'pog!' but I came to realize. Some adjustments to the overall game will be necessary in answer to that.

- Black Knight for once, could use its original Critical Evade back. Other classes could have creative ways to increase their Critical Evade or Critical Hit, since it's so important now.
- If your raw Physical Defense is now your only bet against damage from Critical Hits, then things like Burn and Rampaging have to be nerfed slightly. Or else building for defense will be meaningless if whatever you invest and gain from bonuses is just scrapped off so easily. It's like giving every character in the world mini-Buster Cannons and saying 'this is fair and balanced, just dodge lmao' when they have no more than 3 CEL and 44 LUC.
- Fleur and Duelist will now be more meta than before, especially if Ghost is now only adding more damage to them. Claret Call was their way of 'ignoring armor', now they'll be able to ignore armor AND deal up to bonus 80 damage every slap close to a graveyard. I'd be the first advocate against them in this case. Basic Hit Kensei can crack a root beer because pretty much it's all they needed out of crit buffs. But Ghost's only going to become superior overall.
- Bows are now superior guns, since they CAN and WILL critically hit you no matter what you do, while not suffering from low scaling or range issues.
- People can get 100% Critical Hit too easy. People can't get 100% Critical Evade without shooting themselves in the foot, or being a Priest/FAI-based Mage.

Pretty much a lot of what Snake is saying here is actually what will end up happening, in particular his argument that defense shredding becoming one of the best damage boosts in the game is the concerning factor for me, you can already do so much tank shredding with Burn and/or Rampaging that removing armor from the critical hit equation would turn attempting to tank onto its head completely.

He is also correct in that building critical evade is not something you just do normally, its a happen-stance of your build generally if you decided you wanted LUC or FAI, and generally picking up these stats will end up taking away from your overall tankiness anyways, hell with Negation being nerfed into being not even half of what it used to be, even BKs will struggle to mitigate critical hit rate down to the 20s without some serious dedication in their build.

Potential Suggestions
A) Ignore armor on critical hits as a way to ramp up basic hits.
B) Add armor penetration to guile, 1 per 5 points or 2 per 5 points should add more value to the stat. (8 or 16 at 40 guile)
C) Add more ways for basic hitters to reduce armor, perhaps via rampaging or another status effect.

I would opt in for option B myself, as it at least ties it all into a stat, but another suggestion I could add to the pile is for critical hits to ignore half of a target's armor instead of all of it, people may dislike tanks in the current landscape of things but diminishing a stat thats already been nerfed very recently is going to make them feel pretty terrible to play, especially when the problem isn't even full tanks, its mostly tanky mages/SWA gougers.

[Snake]

Armor Penetration on Guile? Sexy.

[Lolzytripd]

Armor Penetration on Guile? Sexy.

I gotta disagree, guile is already a tax stat on non guile scaling basic attackers, this just makes it more mandatory.

i still think nothing is being done to address that Basic attackers will always be defensively weaker (unless abusing a guaranteed crit gimmick that allows them to dump luck) than their auto hitting counterparts. The gap is further widened by the fact that most autohits scale better than a critical hit while providing more utility/effects/combos.

My admittedly extreme solution, Reduce all Max scaling on  spells and autohits to 100% per 3m required for the ability OR return base crit damage to 200% before weapon modifiers like it was Pre GR.