[Balor]

According to what I've seen from damage calculations guile seems to calculate after armor rather than before. This was after extensive testing with friends. With the nerf to volcanic incoming and vorpal having fallen out of favor due to how unreliable it is.  The obvious flex people want would be global fleur, which I have been fervently against.  Some classes deserve a fleur equivalent, but not all classes do. 

Rather the damage equation should change from. 

Swa > Phys DR> Elemental/slash+pierce Res>Armor>Guile+Crit Mod> Evasion + Global/ BonusDR 

Which would mean 100 swa with a critical modifer of 150 from weapon and guile vs 50 phys DR and 20 armor which are not difficult numbers for a tank to reach would equate to about:

100 - 50% = 50 - 20 = 30 + 150 critical modifer = 45 damage.   That's not taking into account other forms of DR like shields, BK passives, etc. Which take place AFTER the base Phys Res% and Armor are calculated.  

Post change the equation would be thus. 

Swa >Guile+Crit Mod> Phys DR> Elemental/slash+pierce Res>Armor> Evasion+ Bonus/Global DR 

100 + 150 critical modifer = 150 - 50% = 75 - 20 = 55 damage.

The initial damage would be 150 cut down to 75.  Then reduced by armor down to 55.  Now this is a minor buff for critical hits and basic attackers, but this isn't taking into account higher swa levels, guile gouges, etc.  It also wouldn't make cel based builds oppressed by the damage buffs as they tend NOT to build armor so the losses in durability would be minor. But it would lead to healthier tiers of damage vs tankier targets that gouged high armor and physical res. 

Also for a more brutal example which is a possible marker to reach with the current equation: 

100 - 60% = 40 - 30 = 10 + 150 critical modifer = 15 damage.

With my suggested equation: 

100+ 150 critical modifer = 150  - 60% = 60 - 30 = 30  damage.

It wouldn't be a huge buff to damage but it would be a nice one that would give back some damage for the stat investment we make in crit and worst of all guile. 

TLDR: It seems guile is calculated after armor and phys res%. Change it so it comes prior not before.

STLDR: Guile<armor +phys res = bad. Guile>armor +phys res% = good.

[Neus]

One thing I was considering was having criticals ignore armor entirely, since it just makes sense thematically.

[Balor]

One thing I was considering was having criticals ignore armor entirely, since it just makes sense thematically.

Dev pardon my language.  But fuck yes. Fuck yeah. Shine on you crazy diamond.

[Senna]

I can live with that.

[Autumn]

I'm not sure if ignoring armor on criticals would necessarily be a very good idea, but it certainly buffs basic attackers if you do it I can't disagree with that.

Even just adjusting the calculation to apply criticals before armor would already buff basic attackers quite a lot, while still giving armor some value versus basic attackers, instead of none at all.

I'm scared that if armor is removed from the calculation entirely we're gonna see basic attackers dealing way too much damage again, I mean they already deal more damage than most other archetypes typically, just most basic attackers are subjugated to the woes of being melee range or not having enough critical hit given that the value of basic attacks relies solely on critically hitting.

Not to mention Rampaging already exists as a way to tank bust, its a very potent enchantment on its own.

[Balor]

There is an irony to the title of this thread. I can't say that Dev's change is the one I'd personally go for, but if it happens. I ain't gonna stop it, I want to see some blood.

At the moment there are decent options for crit evade, and an entire class that gives you crit evade +24 crit evade. I feel as though perhaps setting out the change and then adding itemization to help tanks. When you consider how many options people have to shut down critters and their economy from slash res, to crit evade stacking, etc from Black Knight, Bonder, guard stacking, etc.

And even then typically due to the way the meta currently stands even with the nerf to custom tomes mages will still out damage most if not all crit builds with safer stat optimizations and range.

TLDR: I can live with this.

[Autumn]

I don't mind if it goes through, but I think more ways to combat critical hits will need to be introduced somehow if it does go through, namely for those who can't afford critical evade, such as with Lucky Amulet reducing critical damage.

[Balor]

I'd be fine with that, though I wouldn't suggest % crit reductions since Dullahans could dicketh thee down and with other means could feasibly reduce critical mods to zero. We could buff up things like steel body to reduce critical damage by rank etc.

However I am less concerned as it would mean that the current set up of mages and other magic damage amping builds that are prevalent might actually have proper competition that isn't volcanic procs.

BIG EDIT: So with Dev's suggested change with 150% crit modifier the equation would be Swa > Phys DR> Elemental/slash+pierce Res>Guile+Crit Mod> Evasion+ Bonus/Global DR


100 swa - 50% phys res = 50 + 150% critical modifier = 75 damage. For a more substantial average of what the regular basic attacker is running. For the sake of this we will have 130 swa, and a 140% crit modifier to simulate an anchors edge.

130 swa - 50% phys res = 65 + 140 crit modifier = 91 damage. This isn't taking into account bonus damage mitigation like shields or black knight passives. If you struck a BK with their damage mitigation up you'd hit them for 82 damage. If you hit a BK main with a shield from the front with their passive up. You'd be hitting 25% bonus reduction at the end of the standard calculations.


130 swa - 50% phys res = 65 + 140 crit modifier - 25% = 69 nice damage. So I feel like Dev's suggested change DOES give critters a big boost, but there is still enough mitigation out there to put them on par with guns and their ability to ignore armor. Except without the range boon and their crippling shell abilities.

130 swa - 50% phys res = 65 + 140 crit modifier - 35% = 60 not as nice damage. These are the numbers if a BK has you feared and is wielding a shield and you don't hit them from the front. I think worst case scenario guard becomes more meta for tanks in order to mitigate the damage dealt to them. Which was already happening in order to deal with the burst of mages.

[Senna]

About Dev's comment about Crit ignoring armor, it just dawns on me that if we were to follow through with that, then guns might need to be adjusted as well. Since that was one of the gun's gimmicks. Doing so will give people a lot fewer person no reason to run them outside of MG.

Doesn't this mean we might need to give them something new in return?

[Sawrock]

Defense and resistance need more uniqueness to both their stats; defense could provide 0.2 less crit modifier per point, resistance could provide free snacks and a Netflix account.