[Trexmaster]

i got 58 scaled GUI to do less than a felhook (brawler's gloves aren't good indicators of crit damage i know (total crit mod of 163%))

I might make another thread on reviewing basic attacks in general, but to keep things simple and on topic, I'm just going to focus on crits here.

While it's hard not to address basic attacks in general when discussing the effectiveness of crits, the example above demonstrates how you need to invest so much into GUI to see returns equal to most auto-hits on top of demanding the stats to crit in the first place.

Specialized setups like Battleaxe crit fishers or most viable daggers in general will see better returns on investing into crit, and if crit is juiced up too much there will be an influx of these setups until they're inevitably nerfed into the dirt specifically (or drag crit back down with them).

The problem I see is that some weapons that are designed with basic attacking in mind (see: anything with an On Hit or On Crit) fall flat on taking advantage of crit damage or critical effects, be it subpar numbers or just not having them at all in the case of effects.

Put simply, if a weapon's critical hit cannot outperform an auto-attack of equal cost and you aren't gaining enough momentum to make 3 actions, there are very few scenarios in which you'd ever go for the basic attack over performing an applicable auto-hit skill instead. The only competing factors at that point are potential utility, and that wildly varies depending on weapon type and class usage, which would need a whole different thread to go over--but if we're only talking sheer damage then the choice is simple.

Crit higher than the auto-hit or your investment in crit would've been well better served pumping your defenses instead or raising your SWA just a bit more.

As for how likely it is for a crit to even beat out autohits:

• Most autohits deal anywhere from 100% SWA to 140% SWA, going higher in some fringe cases like DH autohits reaching 160% with spirits and some cooldown heavy skills like Lance de Lion and Eclair Lacroix going up to 180%.
  
• Autohitting only requires the investment needed to attain the SWA desired for the skill(s) and weapon used. The remainder can be spent on defensive stats.
  
• Weapon critical modifiers range from 105-145 before outside modifiers, such as Scaled GUI adding an additional 1 critical modifier per GUI.
  
• Critical hit demands heavy investment into both SKI and LUC to see consistent results, and is heavily restrictive on what weapons will function well utilizing critical hits compared to the alternative of auto-hit investment.
  

To put it into numbers, you're spending at least 90 of your 240 stat points if you want to critically hit, leaving you with only 150 points to spend on your SWA stats (if they aren't already SKI or LUC), GUI if you want to capitalize on raw critical damage, and VIT/DEF/RES to have the durability to compete. Whereas if you only want to autohit and aren't overtly concerned about SKI investment (or cheat and use a SKI scaling weapon), you're free to spend your 190-240 (190 if you went the SKI stick route) points on dumping into VIT/DEF/RES and likely WIL to support your FP pool to last for a fight of spamming skills. A typically 5 point spread VS a potential 6 point spread at best.

Taking into account some autohits that deal supplemental damage equal to elemental ATK, bar utilizing Fluer or critting with two unique weapons (or bare hands), critical hits struggle to maintain similar damage as simply building for maximizing your autohit damage.

TL;DR: The biggest risks an auto-hit faces is Evasion, Cobra, and FP loss. Critical hits can be negated entirely, or fail to have a chance to ever succeed to either Crit Evade or Evade. There's minimal incentive to risk critical hits when the alternative is often as if not more effective and reliable.

EDIT: To add my input on possible changes to help bring Crit up to par, having it go through armor is a start.

I'd honestly suggest raising GUI's effectiveness on Critical Damage to something like 1.5x Scaled GUI considering how much of a dump stat it typically is unless you're already running a dagger or bow that scales off it, though this runs the risk of getting out of hand with the aforementioned weapons that already worked well with GUI in mind.

All I can come up with right now for a sweeping Crit change that won't just shoot daggers/axes/bows to the moon in strength is having additional effects on crit dependent on weapon type, and potentially traits/talents down the line to better tailor these effects to your character. It could be adjusted to make it so whatever daggers/axes/bows get isn't crazy when piled on their bias for critting in the first place, and is simply fitting for what they are. Some quick ideas include similar statuses to wounds for swords/axes/spears/daggers that cause a DoT effect or inflict -DEF. And if people would like to play crit without these added effects, could add a caveat to Merciful Soul or something to have more subdued effects.

[Snake]

I mean, I'm all down for weapon uniqueness 'on-crit' effects for each type. I just wonder "what" would they get in particular.

Sword - Bonus momentum?
Polearm - Armor penetration? Guard/Parry Break?
Axe - Armor break?
Fist - Focus% down? Mini-Nachbeben?
Dagger - Lingering Damage (Slash)?
Bow - Slow?
Gun - Lingering Damage (Pierce)?
Tome - Auto-Spell (Fir,Miu,Rye,Isendo,Vyd)?

Sounds like a piece of work. It's what we'd want but I don't think we can get an uniform idea for what each weapon should get.

[Syeburn]

One thing I was considering was having criticals ignore armor entirely, since it just makes sense thematically.

can lightning criticals ignore magic armor as well?

[Autumn]

I agree with Trexmaster's post in that GUI can feel worthless as a stat when your weapon specifically doesn't scale it, having it be 1.5x the value of what it is now would mostly bump up more dedicated builds more than lower end builds, as a trade off I do think that Axes feel gratifying at the moment as well when they rest at roughly 135% Critical damage base, maybe a base critical damage increase could also spice things up a bit.

Swords/Fists/Bows/Guns all have some really low critical damages each, and polearm isn't much better but its at least a little better.

Another good solution, further elaborating on my previous post, is to increase both base critical damage and GUI's Value, this might spiral daggers out of control but thats nothing that can't be changed later, generally I don't think it'll end up being too bad, after all Critical Damage has Diminishing returns.

Something like increasing Sword/Fist/Bow/Gun/Polearm Crit DMG base to 125% Base would be fine, matching Axes which already have weapon parts and a talent to increase its critical damage further, still giving it its own identity, and then increasing Critical Damage gained from GUI from 1 per 1 to 1.5 crit DMG% per 1 GUI

[Senna]

The thread is taking a turn right now. Let me just address this before going back on topic.

As for the Auto hit vs Basic attack comments. A lot of info is covered up there. Such as Auto hit builds need to run quite a high amount of SWA for the damage to add up. Evasion with other reduction bonuses, 8/10 of the times will proc and lower the damage by 30%-40+%. (Only doesn't proc often if it's a basic attacker using auto hits). The chance an auto-hitter will only hit 1-2 times, maybe 3-4 with DH (However the damage is lowered) and 3 max with Verglass vs 2-3 times for Basic attacks, maybe 1-2 if they lack crit chance, not the mention the universal support basic attackers have such as on hits, Vorpal, Volcanic seed, Hunt with C/Call (bloody palm), Rampage, Motivation, Etc over the little Auto hit has.

It's not impossible for a basic attacker to full HP to zero someone in one round (As I've done it before). The only ups auto-hit have, if they're not against Cobra is that they'll always hit and it's consistent.

So let's not start that Auto hit vs Basic attack thing and try to get Basic attack overturned than buffed a bit. We just got out of Volcanic seed hell. 


Back on topic: Yes I do believe Basic attacks should get some Armor pen if they crit someone. It would be nice if it's tied to GUI. This would give basic attackers a reason to STOP neglecting GUI as a stats. GUI gives crit damage, Flank bonus, slots, and so on, giving it this bonus Armor Pen would make it a loaded stat but also worthwhile investing points into.

[Balor]

Either ignore armor entirely, or bass boost guiles damage modifier up through the roof.

After Millers recent math its' revealed to me just how jank we already are as basic hitters and like. Just show us some love Dev.

[Fern]

One thing I was considering was having criticals ignore armor entirely, since it just makes sense thematically.

Is this or some kind of other option still up for consideration by chance? I'm of the opinion that there's starting to be a glaring lack of basic attackers (at least from what I've personally seen, might be different for someone else) overtime. It's admittedly not all that fun to build for something that requires much, much effort to make kind of functional (basics) for the same result as something that requires far less hoop-jumping to get working (autohit/magic)
 

I'm admittedly also mildly disheartened that I have to overtune basic attacker event characters to do decent damage to the average tank. 1200+ damage before reductions on a Charge Weapon LV4 Burst Claw (manually applied status, of course) with 120~ SWA and 58 scaled GUI getting docked down to 250~ damage was... something. Dev pls make basics not awful ;_;

[Sawrock]

Senna, as others have stated autohit users have a lot more stats to work with; the argument "you need to pump SWA to high hell" is redundant due to the existence of needing GUI.

I still want global fleur as it'll encourage more build variety in wide variety of classes, although I'm not against raising the crit damage on most weapons as Autumn has suggested (as that too will give more variety/choice, not locking users to four or so weapons of each type).

[Snake]

Fleur could be watered down and made a Trait at this point.

Fleur (Duelist) could just make critical hits ignore armor twice per enemy or something, while Fleur (Trait) could grant the bonus momentum and can be accessible by all classes.

Ello, it's me from the future! Honestly if we want change we shouldn't be bashing ideas against each other. I'll try to toss a baseline on the next post.

[Senna]

Haha... No we don't need global Fluer. It was main class for a reason.