[Daisuke]

I disagree and think cel is fine as it is. All this math really points out is that cel and evade based passives are good at doing their job when you prioritize them. Now let's look at your first example and see what happens when you do that.
56% str
21% wil
12% def
27% res
37% vit

Those growths scream "All I can do is heaven kick > rapid kick and hope they die because I'm made of glass". It's a one-trick pony build that doesn't have much else to fall back on if it gets countered, much like a gunner that only does attack > parting shot. It's high risk high reward.
And that's generally what happens when you prioritize on a specific skill. RNG aside, If you try to maximize something you leave yourself lacking in other areas and when you try to cover for them you miss out a bit on the skill you were trying to max.

Now let's ignore the base classes for a second and look at promo classes that have a reasonable way of 100% hitting cel users.
Evoker
Lantern Bearer
Grand Summoner
Verglas
Engineer
Void Assassin
Black Knight
Monk
Kensei if they aren't just using it for the passives

That's 9 out of 13 and the only thing protecting you against them is 12% def, 27% res, and 37% vit, especially considering you have an 18 mod in cel which means you're also missing out on some defensive itemization.
So facing someone who has no response to a dodge build because they're centered on attacking normally isn't absurd, it means they're inflexible. There's nothing keeping a MG from subbing as an Engi and using the flamethrower, especially because upgrade is just as good of a damage boost as Absolute Death is or Elemental Augment for guns so it's not like they're missing out if they do sub Engi.

[Soapy]

I agree with everything Ranylyn said, except for
(off topic)

Ranylyn » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:26 pm[/url]"]For comparison: I complain about Mind Charge applying Res after the damage multiplier, right? This is because Res is the defensive stat against magic. Just as defense is a counter to physical attacks, resistance is meant to be a counter to magic. Except... it isn't, since Mind Charge invalidates it.

Because if it applied Res before the charge, it'd actually be doing less damage.

Evoker on its own is fine, but combining it with Lantern Bearer gets rid of their biggest weakness for free.
Which is an issue with Lantern Bearer, not Evoker.

[Ranylyn]

Because if it applied Res before the charge, it'd actually be doing less damage.

Evoker on its own is fine, but combining it with Lantern Bearer gets rid of their biggest weakness for free.
Which is an issue with Lantern Bearer, not Evoker.

Also spoiler tagging for off topic:

My issue is that the projected "2.5x damage" is clearly intended to be a "charge up at a distance before they close in, while 3 successive spells is still a better option" thing. What I mean is, CM is a full turn right there, with the first cast of the next turn doing 2.5x, as opposed to using the same spell 3 times for 3x damage. Logical sense so far, right?

Against high Res, is, it's possible to do FAR more than 2.5x damage due to how res is applied! For example, if your spell did a base of 100 damage, and you had 50 res, you're looking at a normal cast of 50, versus a Mind Charge of 200 (100 x 2.5 = 250, -50 res) instead of a Mind Charge of 125 (100 - 50 res x 2.5.) 200 is literally 4x the uncharged damage, a full 1.5x better than it's "supposed" to be."

In this scenario, MC changes from "it's that good first hit" to "It's the "everything" button. And that's just off. Doubly so when you factor in that Magaisendo ALSO only bases it's range reduction off the base damage! So again, a base of 100 damage means that things nearby take maybe 220 (asuming 30-ish res) while you still do something like 140 at maximum penalty distance, since the multiplier is applied before the reduction, but the reduction is still based on the original amount. And don't get me wrong. I love this on my evoker. But it IS admittedly stupid.

[Daisuke]

Ranylyn » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:43 am[/url]"]

Because if it applied Res before the charge, it'd actually be doing less damage.

Evoker on its own is fine, but combining it with Lantern Bearer gets rid of their biggest weakness for free.
Which is an issue with Lantern Bearer, not Evoker.

Also spoiler tagging for off topic:

My issue is that the projected "2.5x damage" is clearly intended to be a "charge up at a distance before they close in, while 3 successive spells is still a better option" thing. What I mean is, CM is a full turn right there, with the first cast of the next turn doing 2.5x, as opposed to using the same spell 3 times for 3x damage. Logical sense so far, right?

Against high Res, is, it's possible to do FAR more than 2.5x damage due to how res is applied! For example, if your spell did a base of 100 damage, and you had 50 res, you're looking at a normal cast of 50, versus a Mind Charge of 200 (100 x 2.5 = 250, -50 res) instead of a Mind Charge of 125 (100 - 50 res x 2.5.) 200 is literally 4x the uncharged damage, a full 1.5x better than it's "supposed" to be."

In this scenario, MC changes from "it's that good first hit" to "It's the "everything" button. And that's just off. Doubly so when you factor in that Magaisendo ALSO only bases it's range reduction off the base damage! So again, a base of 100 damage means that things nearby take maybe 220 (asuming 30-ish res) while you still do something like 140 at maximum penalty distance, since the multiplier is applied before the reduction, but the reduction is still based on the original amount. And don't get me wrong. I love this on my evoker. But it IS admittedly stupid.

Except they're a nuke mage, CM is literally their identity. It's not supposed to be "this is only good for the first hit". It's fully intended to function like that, not "spam spells over and over again" like you think they should be doing.
So no, I'd say it's not stupid.

[Lolzytripd]

Ranylyn » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:43 am[/url]"]

Because if it applied Res before the charge, it'd actually be doing less damage.

Evoker on its own is fine, but combining it with Lantern Bearer gets rid of their biggest weakness for free.
Which is an issue with Lantern Bearer, not Evoker.

Also spoiler tagging for off topic:

My issue is that the projected "2.5x damage" is clearly intended to be a "charge up at a distance before they close in, while 3 successive spells is still a better option" thing. What I mean is, CM is a full turn right there, with the first cast of the next turn doing 2.5x, as opposed to using the same spell 3 times for 3x damage. Logical sense so far, right?

Against high Res, is, it's possible to do FAR more than 2.5x damage due to how res is applied! For example, if your spell did a base of 100 damage, and you had 50 res, you're looking at a normal cast of 50, versus a Mind Charge of 200 (100 x 2.5 = 250, -50 res) instead of a Mind Charge of 125 (100 - 50 res x 2.5.) 200 is literally 4x the uncharged damage, a full 1.5x better than it's "supposed" to be."

In this scenario, MC changes from "it's that good first hit" to "It's the "everything" button. And that's just off. Doubly so when you factor in that Magaisendo ALSO only bases it's range reduction off the base damage! So again, a base of 100 damage means that things nearby take maybe 220 (asuming 30-ish res) while you still do something like 140 at maximum penalty distance, since the multiplier is applied before the reduction, but the reduction is still based on the original amount. And don't get me wrong. I love this on my evoker. But it IS admittedly stupid.

Except they're a nuke mage, CM is literally their identity. It's not supposed to be "this is only good for the first hit". It's fully intended to function like that, not "spam spells over and over again" like you think they should be doing.
So no, I'd say it's not stupid.

I don't see why the current set up is stupid, any technique used to multiplicatively increase damage that is a buff on yourself should increase that damage before it is vs enemy resistance, because you charged it, its power was increased right then and there, not on the point of contact with the enemy, Cm, Greaper, Criticals, weakness and resists, and critical% modifiers, ect fall under this.

when an enemy is marked with a technique like absolute death or the tactician one, which is a debuff which multiplicatvely increases damage done to that particular enemy from all sources, now that damage is increased after contact with the enemy so resistance and defense are factored in before the multiplication, is that so damn hard to understand why they are different?

The only reason CM'd invokes do so much is Greaper.

(Will+tome+spell power)*1.3*2.5 which works out to. (will+tome+spellpower)*3.25 ...a close range isenshi get's a multiplier of 4.8

[Nuclear]

Will you asshats take your off-topic bullshit elsewhere?

Now, onto the subject at hand, I'd have to say that I'm mixed in my response to this; What was the point to buffing To-Hit by changing Blessed, etc. if it can still be invalidated by dodgers? I believe this is what Sderg is trying to say here. The fact that the only defense offered is "BECUZ AUTOHITS" is absurd, and while this can be the case for dealing with these sorts, it really shouldn't be the only method of combating this character archetype, even though I agree with most of Ran's/Dai's points about it being a "one trick pony" and a "glass cannon."

Yes, dodgers thrive on being able to dodge but basically saying anything that isn't an Evoker or any class with a powerful never-miss ability is irrelevant would be exactly the problem that Sderg is attempting to point out, and the solution is to not ruin CEL or dodging but to make it more malleable and fair, to BALANCE it out in accordance with the rest of the game. If its absurd negation of any attempts to hitting them without slumming for SKI and to-hit boosts weren't such a problem, autohits wouldn't have to be so damned prevalent and defacto in the first place. People shouldn't be punished for what they want to play, and neither should certain aspects of the game be so overwhelmingly good either. The whole point is to BALANCE the game, not make it so That > Anything not This.

[Daisuke]

Keep your off-topic stuff in spoilers please, you're disrupting the topic.

I already pointed out other classes that can autohit a dodger so I'm not gonna go into the "anything that isn't an evoker"
However, the fact that autohits are the only method of combat for dodge is because there are literally only 2 methods of combat. Autohitting and roll-to-hit attacks.
Vit, Res, and Def protect you from both, Cel only protects you against one. Having high base res and def make it statistically impossible to have high base cel. High vit has a somewhat better chance because Hyattrs are a thing but even they only have a 5% cel growth.

So you have two options:
1: Nerf or indirectly nerf dodge.
You can do this by buffing roll-to-hits in some form, nerfing evade, or nerfing the other stats most evade builds have to work with.
The issue with cel not working reliably is that it only works on 1 method of attacking and it generally comes with low vit so when it's not working vs basic attacks, it's not working on anything.

If it does change, my suggestion would be to create a diminishing return system for cel so that after a certain point, stacking tons of cel isn't as effective so there isn't a day and night difference between someone with 70% cel growth and 100% cel growth with +18 cel from mods. If you do that, you get a general number of evade to work with that applies to most dodge builds which makes it easier to adjust if needed and you take out the incentive to focus completely on dodge and make builds more flexible.

2. Change the way Cel works.
Cel is meant to protect you from 1 main source of combat, that's just how it works. If you try and make it so having good skill, one of the most commonly high stats because practically everything aside from mages use skill, has a good chance of hitting someone that stacks cel, they should at least have something to fallback on.
My suggestion for this is a partial evade system that reduces damage dealt by a % based on how well you dodge. This makes it so you don't need to dodge everything to be effective with a cel build and roll-to-hit attacks still get their damage and ability to crit so everyone wins.

[Soapy]

Nuclear » Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:07 am[/url]"]Will you asshats take your off-topic bullshit elsewhere?

[tooltip2=Calm the fuck down kid.]Spoiler[/tooltip2]

[Ranylyn]

Nuclear » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:07 pm[/url]"]Will you asshats take your off-topic bullshit elsewhere?

Whoa there. You could have just asked us to make a new thread, but instead you jumped straight to the flaming. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Oh, and for the record, The "off topic" started as a comparison of scenarios. So it WAS on topic, once. So there's that.

Now, onto the subject at hand, I'd have to say that I'm mixed in my response to this; What was the point to buffing To-Hit by changing Blessed, etc. if it can still be invalidated by dodgers? I believe this is what Sderg is trying to say here. The fact that the only defense offered is "BECUZ AUTOHITS" is absurd, and while this can be the case for dealing with these sorts, it really shouldn't be the only method of combating this character archetype, even though I agree with most of Ran's/Dai's points about it being a "one trick pony" and a "glass cannon."

Yes, dodgers thrive on being able to dodge but basically saying anything that isn't an Evoker or any class with a powerful never-miss ability is irrelevant would be exactly the problem that Sderg is attempting to point out, and the solution is to not ruin CEL or dodging but to make it more malleable and fair, to BALANCE it out in accordance with the rest of the game. If its absurd negation of any attempts to hitting them without slumming for SKI and to-hit boosts weren't such a problem, autohits wouldn't have to be so damned prevalent and defacto in the first place. People shouldn't be punished for what they want to play, and neither should certain aspects of the game be so overwhelmingly good either. The whole point is to BALANCE the game, not make it so That > Anything not This.

This is the whole point of counters. It' like a game of rock-paper-scissors. You win some, you lose some. And considering how many things completely and utterly wreck dodgers, it really makes you ask the person who is getting shut down by them... "So... why aren't you covering your main class's weakness with your subclass!?"

People don't usually use autohits because they HAVE to (except in a few extreme cases.) They use autohits because the skills HAPPEN to be autohits. For example, evokers actually get good Skill growth at 30% (Read: Tied with the second best Strength growth available!) They can end up with a good amount of skill. But their spells are all autohits anyways. Kensei attack skills? Last I checked, all autohits, depite them having the second highest skill growth in the game. Just as a few examples.

Anyways, after all those bonuses to hit, Evade got a buff in the form of Afterimage: A trait. Which means you're not sinking that point into stats elsewhere. Why? Because so many things were now giving massive hit bonuses. Older melee characters typically had high faith due to the old Blessed enchantment, and of course, a lot of things were added like Fitting Form or whatever that MG one is called, I forget.

Anyways, many people no longer seem to see the appeal to faith, and deliberately leave it low to game the fact that you're guaranteed a minumum of 3 gains at level up. (This recently came up in OOC.) If these characters rely on accuracy, you see why this could be an issue. It's not so much that dodge needs a nerf, but that Dodge was considered so bad for so long that people stopped caring about their counters.

Lolzytripd » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:21 am[/url]"]

I don't see why the current set up is stupid, any technique used to multiplicatively increase damage that is a buff on yourself should increase that damage before it is vs enemy resistance, because you charged it, its power was increased right then and there, not on the point of contact with the enemy, Cm, Greaper, Criticals, weakness and resists, and critical% modifiers, ect fall under this.

when an enemy is marked with a technique like absolute death or the tactician one, which is a debuff which multiplicatvely increases damage done to that particular enemy from all sources, now that damage is increased after contact with the enemy so resistance and defense are factored in before the multiplication, is that so damn hard to understand why they are different?

The only reason CM'd invokes do so much is Greaper.

(Will+tome+spell power)*1.3*2.5 which works out to. (will+tome+spellpower)*3.25 ...a close range isenshi get's a multiplier of 4.8

You mentioned Absolute Death, so you've activated my trap card:

I had a character who could expect to do an average of 50 damage with his weapon before enemy defense (used to be 60 but lol blessed nerf.) He was a Kensei so naturally he had AD maxed out. By your logic, He should have done well over 100 damage with an AD'd crit, because 50 x 1.5 x 1.5 - def. However, enemy defense was applied before either effect; if something had 25 def, He'd do 25 x 1.5 x 1.5.

So... why does magic get all the benefits of multipliers and such? Seriously. Don't get me wrong. I love magic. I get butthurt when a game has bad magic (fucking hell, Skyrim you steaming pile of shitting-on-mages) But I also believe in balance, and when one class gets an outright mechanical advantage like this, it's kind of bull.

Unless this was recently changed. I've been maging/ gunning it up because melee got shat on too much

[Lolzytripd]

please take a moment to re read what I said, good, now let me explain

Charge mind is a buff, being a buff it increases damage before contact with the enemy, Ie while it is flying in the air so to speak

Excel weapons follow the same logic here but sadly are not as amazing as charge mind, perhaps buffing them 75% instead of 50 per charge but meh.

Tactician order and absolute death are debuffs, statuses that affect the enemy, these increase the damage done to the enemy after defensive calculations, they do this because they are debuffs, not buffs, however unlike charge statuses that are consumed after use, Absolute death and the tactician bonus last awhile meaning you can get the bonus damage on ALOT more things, giving both their advantages and disadvantages.

Sir your trap card needs to be flipped back down as the activation conditions were misinterpreted, its okay I do it a lot myself

Throwing this out there, I don't want dodge to be useless for avoiding things, Perhaps if both dodge and hit had this

minimum chance to hit when not debuffed=30% of total skill

Minimum chance to dodge when not debuffed=20% of total cel + 10% of total luck