[Pyro]

sturm shriek is not a comparable move to every other silence

that shit sucks

edit

ghost's silence is also awful
kensei too

[FaeLenx]

Just make priest and other heal heavy classes gain a debuff that lasts a couple turns that blocks them from getting healed from other sources.

Or add a lore friendly implication to the overuse of Mercana and make every use of healing Mercana magic on the field increase the FP cost of the next healing spell by 10% for both friend and foe. You could even add an invocation to purge the counter if you're worried it'll ramp up too fast.

Or 100% interference after round 30 of any fight that reapplies every turn.

[Caboozles]

I'm going to take a second to say I don't agree with most of these changes because they impact PvE too heavily, and too negatively.

Nerfing teamwide aoe or adding cooldowns before you can get any healing may be great for PvP balance, but I'd say this would gut a lot of your ability to beat these bosses with suboptimal setups. Sometimes you need to heal twice in two turns to keep people alive.
This especially hurts evades who are already on life support in PvE content where bosses have more hit than god and you WILL take damage unless you're maxxing out your debuffs/buffs, and even then the unavoidables will hit you for 200+ before appropriate elemental resistances. (Welcome to Lazarus is fun)
(Adding a 30 turn limit before healing doesn't work also is bad because of high end PvE bosses too)

I'd rather efforts on nerfing healing in PvP center around making counters more plentiful, maybe tweaking healing discharge because that one IS a little absurd, and probably taking a pass at spellthief.

[Autumn]

So what's the problem?

Elves.

I want to understand why you think that elves are the problem when it comes to healing when they receive quite literally the lowest form of scaling to tack onto the end of heals with, sure they can build to have more effective healing overall but doing so takes a lot of stat points to achieve compared to stacking SWA and light ATK, and it ends up harming their own tankiness or their own hit rate, or even their own damage in the end of things. I have gone over this argument with you several times now and you refuse to listen and just point your finger at elves every single time because you don't want to see Priest be nerfed. This is fine, nobody wants to see their class nerfed but please stop spreading around misinformation about something that is already proven to not be a problem.

The problem I am finding with healing is not that it can happen, but rather is that it is far too common for us to encounter these big massive AoE game changing healing abilities of differing varieties, out of the 27 classes in the game, we have 9 of them capable of widescale and impactful healing output. It can get ridiculous when you can see a Priest/Dark Bard for instance just rotating between using graft, second set, cantus and malmelo, that's far too much healing! Same thing applies to a spellthief healer.

So what's the solution? I think unironically Kunai is on the right track here, and Lolzy is also correct, multihealing is a problem. Its a cold day in hell when I am agreeing with both of them in the same thread over any issue being presented. I think the correct thing to do in this scenario is start introducing a stacking debuff when putting out certain healing abilities.

[FaeLenx]

I'm on the "make counters more available train" as well with what's said. It only makes PvE worse for the people who still enjoy it to take cracks at PvP balance in any other way. I do sorry about power creep, but interference and silence are at least more dynamic ways of handling healing.

I'm still for my idea of things like entirely new skills for hexer and some other classes that could honestly use more meaningful choices (not necessarily a buff since most hexers will be using every skill point available already). A mapwide interference/heal reversal would be a good field effect invocation. An ability for ghost or kensei that matches any healing that a single enemy would receive for yourself.

Just get fun stuff rather than misery.

[Ray2064]

I'm more so referring to Hi-Pots which are accessible on Korvara, which is 200 HP back, and then there's also bandages which can be used outside of battle. A specced out Graft user hits around let's say around 200 or 214 HP let's just say for a guesstimate. While they're not AoE (aside from bandages) they're free of charge in terms of FP which is their pro. As for the argument at hand, I am simply pointing out that all of the points OP made are seemingly based on his pvp experiences (which there is nothing wrong with it just ties into my comment about build scenarios and team compositions) currently and I quote: 

"So here's a simple suggestion, since AOE healing is known to be an utter pain in the ass for teamfights, mostly due to negating entire turns of attacking and actions for no more than 3 momentum, often blocking a team with most of it's firepowering options shut down into an eternal struggle.

So here's a rather simple suggestion-

For each player ally healed, healing gets -15% efficient, capping at around 60% total efficiency. Healing would definitely remain extremely strong that way, but it actually would mean a side that does not have it's own AOE heals/ ways to disable opposite healing would stand a chance in a teamfight."

While a whole team of healers can certainly be oppressive in certain scenarios, I don't think being unprepared for a healer warrants for a nerf. Team compositions sounds more of an unlucky draw than a balance fu thread. There are many forms of interference in the game ranging from magic gunner to evoker to LB itself and even black knight. I just don't see how much more you can remove from them while still retaining cooldowns that already hinder them from spamming it every round and retaining any sense of use before the damage negates the heal itself completely. Because you can already do that depending on the scenario. Keep in mind action economy plays a huge role in a healer too. Not just FP, cooldowns, silence, interference.

I'd believe there is a slight problem in the first place if Healing's very existence warrants having to build around it/having to use it to not be utterly overwhelmed  in team-fighting situations ( which it does)

These recommendations are indeed based off my own experiences, more specifically off a fairly common observation that I've made :
The team with the most healing is the one that wins, with fairly little nuance to it, be it our side or theirs.

The reason's pretty simple - heals tend to be net Momentum gains for the team who has them, on a virtual level ! (I think?)
Seven hundred HP or so spread across a team is often enough to undo an opponent's turn while giving your team a good margin.

As of counters...


BK's main mean of interference, Black Wind Crescent Rook, is often fairly tricky to pull off in team fights due to the way the effect functions, since
straying too far away from your team is often not too good of an idea.

LB's Quetal in itself is a whole can of worms, and the simple fact that one's in the fight throws all conceived ideas, preparations, and counters out of the window, unless the opposite team has an LB to counterbalance it, and probably one of the main causes of the problem.

Your other options remain valid , though frankly, there's not much outside of that than MG, Evoker (lightning) and Hexer.


Confusion might be the best counter when it comes to the healer themselves, though with a good portion of them being capable of having good Status Res (DB, Curates, Summoners) this isn't necessarily reliable. ...Nor do I honestly consider Confusion balanced in a teamfight environment , or at the very least how easy it can be to apply it.

It's way easier said than done to make Interference counteract AOE healing -entirely-, too. Your best bet is to realistically pick a target to isolate, interf them, beat them down, and repeat...Though if you don't have a reliable mean of -keeping- them down, they can get res'd and healed back just as easily.

---

I'm going to take a second to say I don't agree with most of these changes because they impact PvE too heavily, and too negatively.

Nerfing teamwide aoe or adding cooldowns before you can get any healing may be great for PvP balance, but I'd say this would gut a lot of your ability to beat these bosses with suboptimal setups. Sometimes you need to heal twice in two turns to keep people alive.
This especially hurts evades who are already on life support in PvE content where bosses have more hit than god and you WILL take damage unless you're maxxing out your debuffs/buffs, and even then the unavoidables will hit you for 200+ before appropriate elemental resistances. (Welcome to Lazarus is fun)
(Adding a 30 turn limit before healing doesn't work also is bad because of high end PvE bosses too)

I'd rather efforts on nerfing healing in PvP center around making counters more plentiful, maybe tweaking healing discharge because that one IS a little absurd, and probably taking a pass at spellthief.

I can agree with that much, since healing is somewhat of a different debate in a PVE setting.


Maybe just disalllow these effects if there are monsters present in the battle, and basta.

---

I could vibe with the aforepresented idea of a status that makes heals not easily as spammable, though.

[Autumn]

I'm on the "make counters more available train" as well with what's said. It only makes PvE worse for the people who still enjoy it to take cracks at PvP balance in any other way. I do sorry about power creep, but interference and silence are at least more dynamic ways of handling healing.

I'm still for my idea of things like entirely new skills for hexer and some other classes that could honestly use more meaningful choices (not necessarily a buff since most hexers will be using every skill point available already). A mapwide interference/heal reversal would be a good field effect invocation. An ability for ghost or kensei that matches any healing that a single enemy would receive for yourself.

Just get fun stuff rather than misery.

See the issue I am finding with this is that I think that 1 healer on each squad is more than manageable, and for interference to become more widespread and more commonplace it needs to be reworked to not be the end all be all counter to healing. I agree with making the likes of Ghost and Kensei's silences better, but I'd also opt in to change Heron Feather's effect to be severely less toxic than it already is as well.

I agree with this response to healing as well, but doing so requires addressing Interference's 100% effectiveness and why it troubles healer archetypes so greatly. I am of course talking about one of the age old strategies of dealing with a priest, one that has existed for a very long time, and its not about actually killing the priest but about interfering their allies instead, because they often don't have the same status resistance anyway.

I'd like for Interference to move to a percentage cut of healing based on LV, and LV based on method of application. With the hex "Llunel's Decay" restoring the healing cut to 100% like it is now. And then you can start trickling around Interference on some other classes as ways to buff their offensive pressure with.

[PantherPrincess]

In my experience, one healer using their heals does not equate to attacking 3 times per turn or even twice. I won't parrot the counters skullcat posted above but I will answer: multiple healers juggling their heals sounds like a personal RP issue in terms of team alignments rather than an actual gameplay issue considering being a healer takes a specific build. HP pots heal for more than phoenix, graft, and anything I can really think of right now, while still working on a shorter CD basis but no FP needed. This to me just sounds biased in one experience involving an interaction. My only advice is maybe try to get a team of balanced skillsets instead of maybe going all out on the offensive and expecting to overcome anything and anyone?

Something to note-

Pots do not heal more than those spells in Korvara. We do not have PRs.
They are also not AoE. I don't think they're particularly comparable here.


I'm also not really sure why people are targeting Ray's personal experience.

His squad won all their combats in the most recent PvP-focused long-term event.

Address the arguments, not the person's experience.

I'm more so referring to Hi-Pots which are accessible on Korvara, which is 200 HP back, and then there's also bandages which can be used outside of battle. A specced out Graft user hits around let's say around 200 or 214 HP let's just say for a guesstimate. While they're not AoE (aside from bandages) they're free of charge in terms of FP which is their pro. As for the argument at hand, I am simply pointing out that all of the points OP made are seemingly based on his pvp experiences (which there is nothing wrong with it just ties into my comment about build scenarios and team compositions) currently and I quote: 

"So here's a simple suggestion, since AOE healing is known to be an utter pain in the ass for teamfights, mostly due to negating entire turns of attacking and actions for no more than 3 momentum, often blocking a team with most of it's firepowering options shut down into an eternal struggle.

So here's a rather simple suggestion-

For each player ally healed, healing gets -15% efficient, capping at around 60% total efficiency. Healing would definitely remain extremely strong that way, but it actually would mean a side that does not have it's own AOE heals/ ways to disable opposite healing would stand a chance in a teamfight."

While a whole team of healers can certainly be oppressive in certain scenarios, I don't think being unprepared for a healer warrants for a nerf. Team compositions sounds more of an unlucky draw than a balance fu thread. There are many forms of interference in the game ranging from magic gunner to evoker to LB itself and even black knight. I just don't see how much more you can remove from them while still retaining cooldowns that already hinder them from spamming it every round and retaining any sense of use before the damage negates the heal itself completely. Because you can already do that depending on the scenario. Keep in mind action economy plays a huge role in a healer too. Not just FP, cooldowns, silence, interference.

I'd believe there is a slight problem in the first place if Healing's very existence warrants having to build around it/having to use it to not be utterly overwhelmed  in team-fighting situations ( which it does)

These recommendations are indeed based off my own experiences, more specifically off a fairly common observation that I've made :
The team with the most healing is the one that wins, with fairly little nuance to it, be it our side or theirs.

The reason's pretty simple - heals tend to be net Momentum gains for the team who has them, on a virtual level ! (I think?)
Seven hundred HP or so spread across a team is often enough to undo an opponent's turn while giving your team a good margin.

As of counters...


BK's main mean of interference, Black Wind Crescent Rook, is often fairly tricky to pull off in team fights due to the way the effect functions, since
straying too far away from your team is often not too good of an idea.

LB's Quetal in itself is a whole can of worms, and the simple fact that one's in the fight throws all conceived ideas, preparations, and counters out of the window, unless the opposite team has an LB to counterbalance it, and probably one of the main causes of the problem.

Your other options remain valid , though frankly, there's not much outside of that than MG, Evoker (lightning) and Hexer.


Confusion might be the best counter when it comes to the healer themselves, though with a good portion of them being capable of having good Status Res (DB, Curates, Summoners) this isn't necessarily reliable. ...Nor do I honestly consider Confusion balanced in a teamfight environment , or at the very least how easy it can be to apply it.

It's way easier said than done to make Interference counteract AOE healing -entirely-, too. Your best bet is to realistically pick a target to isolate, interf them, beat them down, and repeat...Though if you don't have a reliable mean of -keeping- them down, they can get res'd and healed back just as easily.

---

I'm going to take a second to say I don't agree with most of these changes because they impact PvE too heavily, and too negatively.

Nerfing teamwide aoe or adding cooldowns before you can get any healing may be great for PvP balance, but I'd say this would gut a lot of your ability to beat these bosses with suboptimal setups. Sometimes you need to heal twice in two turns to keep people alive.
This especially hurts evades who are already on life support in PvE content where bosses have more hit than god and you WILL take damage unless you're maxxing out your debuffs/buffs, and even then the unavoidables will hit you for 200+ before appropriate elemental resistances. (Welcome to Lazarus is fun)
(Adding a 30 turn limit before healing doesn't work also is bad because of high end PvE bosses too)

I'd rather efforts on nerfing healing in PvP center around making counters more plentiful, maybe tweaking healing discharge because that one IS a little absurd, and probably taking a pass at spellthief.

I can agree with that much, since healing is somewhat of a different debate in a PVE setting.


Maybe just disalllow these effects if there are monsters present in the battle, and basta.

---

I could vibe with the aforepresented idea of a status that makes heals not easily as spammable, though.

I'm personally not too sure about momentum gain always being on a healer's side. This can be true in regards to not dealing enough damage towards them, however, on the flipside there are also scenarios where someone can dish out twice maybe even three times as much damage as you can heal back. I recently fought a healing discharge user and I won both times as a non healing build. This is why I keep saying this is based around team composition and many other factors more than it is around a healing build. I think a lot of balance fu is induced through pvp casualities and I don't think that's healthy for the game. This is just my opinion of course but it is why I keep mentioning having a healer on your side. After all, this game is quite literally rock, paper, scissors. There's classes that answer to others quite frankly. I think this in combination with other things that have been mentioned are quite enough to circumvent a healing build. As for healing being a build you have to build around, well... that's quite literally the game for any build. How else do you build a crit build but by either using STR, SKI, and LUC? The same goes for any build, you can't really just waltz your way through healing without investment which is pretty fair I'd say.

[Kameron8]

This is an age old problem with group PvP balance, not a new one.  If your team faces a group with a healer (or multiple), and your group doesn't have one, 9/10 times you lose unless the enemy royally screws up.  If both teams have several healers but one team has interference, it's the same story.

AoE healing starts at 100 and grows upwards of 450. The accessibility of just Second Chancing or Phoenixing one to three people off of the ground, which already heals a ton, then healing them back to >75% in the next action makes optimized PvP a slow grindfest of attrition that devolves into people rubber banding from dead on the floor to nearly full health several times in one fight.

At the very least, make spam resurrecting and healing unconscious people harder.  This isn't an elf problem, an interference problem, or a silence problem, it's a systemic one.

[FaeLenx]

More sources of certain defeat? Only a couple exist and one is bad. (Magic Nova)

Maybe kicking someone while they're down applies it for strength/10 turns?