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Team-wide healing Suggestion
#1
So here's a simple suggestion, since AOE healing is known to be an utter pain in the ass for teamfights, mostly due to negating entire turns of attacking and actions for no more than 3 momentum, often blocking a team with most of it's firepowering options shut down into an eternal struggle.

So here's a rather simple suggestion-

For each player ally healed, healing gets -15% efficient, capping at around 60% total efficiency. Healing would definitely remain extremely strong that way, but it actually would mean a side that does not have it's own AOE heals/ ways to disable opposite healing would stand a chance in a teamfight.


also nerf gentle ember quetal ty
066: Birth of the Robot Emperor
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#2
This is generally something I'd wish for heals in general to get, so it affects more than just teamfights. But basically, just like how we get an arbitrary status effect immunity that doesn't make "IC sense" and serves for balance reasons, so does heals have to get something like it, dude.



An example of what I mean, that you can see in games such as Wakfu, but adjusted around SL2:

Quote:Healing Exhaustion

Duration: Permanent
Condition: After being healed by a skill or spell that costs 4M or less.

Flavor: This unit has been healed recently, and their body needs a moment to breathe.

Effect(s):
- Reduces the effectiveness of healing by LV%. (LV = 50, adds up for each instance of the debuff; max. LV = 80)
- Every round, reduces the LV by half of its current amount. If the LV is below or equal to 10, or the unit takes no damage from attacks, skills or spells, the status is removed.

And for Mainland, since heals there work differently thematically:
- Mercala's Prayer Tool removes any form of Healing Exhaustion from your spells. (Or reduce the harshness, idk.)
[Image: ht_pudding_the_fox_04_mt_140821_16x9_384.jpg]
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#3
(07-23-2023, 05:44 PM)Snake Wrote: This is generally something I'd wish for heals in general to get, so it affects more than just teamfights. But basically, just like how we get an arbitrary status effect immunity that doesn't make "IC sense" and serves for balance reasons, so does heals have to get something like it, dude.



An example of what I mean, that you can see in games such as Wakfu, but adjusted around SL2:

Quote:Healing Exhaustion

Duration: Permanent
Condition: After being healed by a skill or spell that costs 4M or less.

Flavor: This unit has been healed recently, and their body needs a moment to breathe.

Effect(s):
- Reduces the effectiveness of healing by LV%. (LV = 50, adds up for each instance of the debuff; max. LV = 80)
- Every round, reduces the LV by half of its current amount. If the LV is below or equal to 10, or the unit takes no damage from attacks, skills or spells, the status is removed.

And for Mainland, since heals there work differently thematically:
- Mercala's Prayer Tool removes any form of Healing Exhaustion from your spells. (Or reduce the harshness, idk.)


Wouldnt the Duelist's Disengage Skill also be affected by this. . . or a Monk's Aid Spell and any manner of other low level healing from classes.
Munch
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#4
Wouldn't it be better just to reduce the potency of AoE healing overall, or have the big skills have some amount of fall off similar to Phoenix.
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#5
No you really don't.

You got confusions. You got interferences. You don't need to nerf the healing spells any more than they are at the moment. They already has cooldowns. Heck. Malmelo is based on %s of scaled FAI, and Second Set is based on how many Darkness Hype you have which is built up by playing bunch of songs when they're in range.

In fact. Let reinforce this even further.

Cantus of Consideration requires a 6 round CD after usage. Only get 25 more HP healed per songbuffs on friendly ally. It get upgrade if you have Performer promotion class (Which as community states, is probably one, if not the worst promotion) to cleanse debuffs. 
[Image: image.png]

Second set is map-wide heals that only get better per songs used that affects allies, and grants them Darkness hype. It have base heal of 150+Darkness Hype LV = Total heals, and have cooldown of 6, just like above. But it grants a buff based on amount of Darkness hype. But it does NOT cleanse debuffs no matter what.
[Image: image.png]

Graft have generally very good heal, but on it's own it's pretty meh. It requires you to be using spelledged weapon which adds to SWA, Light ATK, and you still have to expend ONE momentum to make it mass to get AoE heal. So you're working with 3M after you dropped graft. It only have cooldown of 4 turn, and it's decent heal overall. it get further better when you take Detailed care, but it requires allies to be in one tile of you to get 50% increased healing. Which generally goes up to 300~ heals at best.
 [Image: image.png]

Malmelo on other hand is 7 round cooldown that is almost impossible to cap on scaled FAI on MOST races. Requiring you to get to scaled fai of 60, which is difficult for lot of races as that's generally 0, or 1 base fai in GENERAL. In addition, it is percentage of a player's health, so depending on who get slapped with malmelo, it may be just less than just slapping them with Rescue+Graft and calling it a day.
[Image: image.png]

Phoenix is 5 rounds cooldown with a rez on top of it. It drops heal on all allies affected by fall-off damage. It have passive regeneration tick while the flame is up, otherwise it's decent AoE heal outpaced by literally any fucking else.
[Image: image.png]

Refreshing Flow is a 7 CD that only heals 225 (+45 if you have aqua crest at that point), and only acts as a buffer to slow down the immensely fast damage race per round. You have to call storm to make this party-wide regen JUST so you don't struggle.
[Image: image.png]

Gentle Garden on other hand is a whooping 3 round cooldown, but only heals 50 + X (X being character level), and requires you to be standing near a plant. 
[Image: image.png]

This is most spammable healing Summoners get right out of their ass. 2 rounds cooldown. Heals everybody near you within two tile range, and also your bonded youkai if you only whipped out one too.
[Image: image.png]

And most difficult of all is Field medic. Requiring you to have very high tactic grade to make use of this, and that's assuming you hadn't lost your party-member already in the PVP fight. Gods forgive. It's base heal based on rank + (Tactician grade * 2)% of the person's total health. Good luck.
[Image: image.png]

It would be more constructive to just ask Dev to nerf base elves.
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#6
(07-23-2023, 07:02 PM)Skullcatrons Wrote: No you really don't.

You got confusions. You got interferences. You don't need to nerf the healing spells any more than they are at the moment. They already has cooldowns. Heck. Malmelo is based on %s of scaled FAI, and Second Set is based on how many Darkness Hype you have which is built up by playing bunch of songs when they're in range.

In fact. Let reinforce this even further.

Cantus of Consideration requires a 6 round CD after usage. Only get 25 more HP healed per songbuffs on friendly ally. It get upgrade if you have Performer promotion class (Which as community states, is probably one, if not the worst promotion) to cleanse debuffs. 
[Image: image.png]

Second set is map-wide heals that only get better per songs used that affects allies, and grants them Darkness hype. It have base heal of 150+Darkness Hype LV = Total heals, and have cooldown of 6, just like above. But it grants a buff based on amount of Darkness hype. But it does NOT cleanse debuffs no matter what.
[Image: image.png]

Graft have generally very good heal, but on it's own it's pretty meh. It requires you to be using spelledged weapon which adds to SWA, Light ATK, and you still have to expend ONE momentum to make it mass to get AoE heal. So you're working with 3M after you dropped graft. It only have cooldown of 4 turn, and it's decent heal overall. it get further better when you take Detailed care, but it requires allies to be in one tile of you to get 50% increased healing. Which generally goes up to 300~ heals at best.
 [Image: image.png]

Malmelo on other hand is 7 round cooldown that is almost impossible to cap on scaled FAI on MOST races. Requiring you to get to scaled fai of 60, which is difficult for lot of races as that's generally 0, or 1 base fai in GENERAL. In addition, it is percentage of a player's health, so depending on who get slapped with malmelo, it may be just less than just slapping them with Rescue+Graft and calling it a day.
[Image: image.png]

Phoenix is 5 rounds cooldown with a rez on top of it. It drops heal on all allies affected by fall-off damage. It have passive regeneration tick while the flame is up, otherwise it's decent AoE heal outpaced by literally any fucking else.
[Image: image.png]

Refreshing Flow is a 7 CD that only heals 225 (+45 if you have aqua crest at that point), and only acts as a buffer to slow down the immensely fast damage race per round. You have to call storm to make this party-wide regen JUST so you don't struggle.
[Image: image.png]

Gentle Garden on other hand is a whooping 3 round cooldown, but only heals 50 + X (X being character level), and requires you to be standing near a plant. 
[Image: image.png]

This is most spammable healing Summoners get right out of their ass. 2 rounds cooldown. Heals everybody near you within two tile range, and also your bonded youkai if you only whipped out one too.
[Image: image.png]

And most difficult of all is Field medic. Requiring you to have very high tactic grade to make use of this, and that's assuming you hadn't lost your party-member already in the PVP fight. Gods forgive. It's base heal based on rank + (Tactician grade * 2)% of the person's total health. Good luck.
[Image: image.png]

It would be more constructive to just ask Dev to nerf base elves.
I don't fully understand the machinations of this game because I've truly never been interested enough to learn it (it doesn't help that it gets convoluted, no shade to Dev and those who contribute to balancing the game), but I'll say this much as someone who is admittedly biased, but feels like this point needs to be conveyed:


If Elf healing needs to get nerfed, then they need to get something else going for them to balance it out. To my understanding, all Elves have going for them compared to most other races (if not all other races) is the above average healing.

That's it. The stats are basic, the water resistance is easily nullified as well, and they have a weakness to a very common element (admittedly this can also be mitigated, but the weakness is still there).

Elves are supposed to be good healers. Let them be good healers. Just because they're better at healing than any other race doesn't mean other races can't be good healers or find use in team compositions. And in my experience, I have seen less Elf healers in Sigrogana and Korvara combined than non-Elf healers, despite their advantage.

And to support this further: Healer's Legacy requires fair point investment to work with any semblance of effect.

As for the original post:

The heal-efficacy for AOEs in PVP sounds like an okay starting point, but probably not the way to go about it. Unfortunately I don't have a counter-suggestion or anything to add beyond that, except perhaps making healing mechanically more in-line with lore: Focus Point intensive, or more Focus Point intensive as it gets used per round. I haven't put any thought into this idea though and don't foresee it gaining any traction. I will say that the cooldowns HAVE helped this issue, as it was MUCH worse in the past.

pls leave gentle embers quetal alone pls omg perma-interference is an ACTUAL nightmare  Sick
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#7
Problem isn't elves, its multiple healers juggling their heals
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#8
In my experience, one healer using their heals does not equate to attacking 3 times per turn or even twice. I won't parrot the counters skullcat posted above but I will answer: multiple healers juggling their heals sounds like a personal RP issue in terms of team alignments rather than an actual gameplay issue considering being a healer takes a specific build. HP pots heal for more than phoenix, graft, and anything I can really think of right now, while still working on a shorter CD basis but no FP needed. This to me just sounds biased in one experience involving an interaction. My only advice is maybe try to get a team of balanced skillsets instead of maybe going all out on the offensive and expecting to overcome anything and anyone?
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#9
(07-24-2023, 05:54 AM)PantherPrincess Wrote: In my experience, one healer using their heals does not equate to attacking 3 times per turn or even twice. I won't parrot the counters skullcat posted above but I will answer: multiple healers juggling their heals sounds like a personal RP issue in terms of team alignments rather than an actual gameplay issue considering being a healer takes a specific build. HP pots heal for more than phoenix, graft, and anything I can really think of right now, while still working on a shorter CD basis but no FP needed. This to me just sounds biased in one experience involving an interaction. My only advice is maybe try to get a team of balanced skillsets instead of maybe going all out on the offensive and expecting to overcome anything and anyone?


Something to note-

Pots do not heal more than those spells in Korvara. We do not have PRs.
They are also not AoE. I don't think they're particularly comparable here.


I'm also not really sure why people are targeting Ray's personal experience.

His squad won all their combats in the most recent PvP-focused long-term event.

Address the arguments, not the person's experience.
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#10
Unironically I think Lolzy and Kunai are actually correct here, while not everyone does it, cycling between heals over and over, you could realistically just randomly run into a party with a Dark Bard/Ranger and a Priest in it and you'd be facing down the guns of 3 diversified builds with access to generally amazing AoE global healing abilities. And the worst part is, they could just be friends or acquaintances just circumstantially paired together.

This makes the teamfighting 4v4 sweatlord experience of the game unfun, genuinely so. I would start to look at options that would involve mitigating the amount of incoming healing (and not self healing) from these more powerful skills, that way other things like Meditate, Rebound and such remain untouched for the time being.
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