[Ranylyn]

It's not like everyone operates with +20 to all stats, either.

[Sarinpa1]

Your argument is pretty holey still. Not only that you can easily have a Str/Ski build (I do and it also has shitton of def and vit and some other things), but it doesn't even mention why the limit of let's say 70 SKI in combat makes meditate any less useful. It's not a healing dedicated class. It's not the main gimmick. It's just something to compliment the lenghty survivability and great offensive capabilities. Not something you can just abuse and reach almost comparable results to actual healing magic, which as I recall is the strongest form of healing avaible.

[MegaBlues]

Also, don't forget. All of Monk's offensive skills also factor in Strength, AFAIK.

[Ranylyn]

Sarinpa1 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:02 am[/url]"]Your argument is pretty holey still. Not only that you can easily have a Str/Ski build (I do and it also has shitton of def and vit and some other things), but it doesn't even mention why the limit of let's say 70 SKI in combat makes meditate any less useful. It's not a healing dedicated class. It's not the main gimmick. It's just something to compliment the lenghty survivability and great offensive capabilities. Not something you can just abuse and reach almost comparable results to actual healing magic, which as I recall is the strongest form of healing avaible.

1) I have a Str/Ski/Vit/Def character as well. Know what they don't have? Will. Therefore, Aid and Setting sun are useless. My point was to the first post's "they can autohit against both defenses!" With what stats?

2) In PVE, most healing from characters not specifically built for max healing (Exceptions: Prescription potions, Malmelo.) can already be fairly easily outdamaged by normal mobs. Any attempt to make this even weaker cannot possibly be PVE related, and too many PVE things have already been utterly crapped on simply for PVP reasons. Sure, a lich Priest/Evoker can get Graft over 200 on an ally if all they carry is a staff, but most characters are looking at far lower numbers.

3) "Almost comparable results?" Let's look at some numbers, shall we? MA/Monk heals are not boosted by tome/staff, for starters, and in the event of an elf, do not benefit from healer's legacy. Let's assume non min-maxed characters, but decently built ones, so 50 in Skill vs 50 in will. And a 20 power tome.

Rank 1 Meditate: 50
Rank 5 Meditate: 62
Rank 1 Graft: 72 (74 with healer's legacy)
Rank 5 graft: 84 (96 with healer's legacy)

In the event of a 2x self heal, you're looking at 100-124 vs 144-168 (before healer's legacy.) This is not "almost comparable." And it gets even more intense as a priest with good faith healing an ally, subbing evoker for +20 due to open equipment slots. MA/Monk/Verg get no further bonuses, at all. So no. It's not "almost comparable" unless your idea of "almost comparable" is an Evoker getting into a fistfight with an Arbalest.

[Sarinpa1]

Terra strike is an example of Res targetting autohit that doesn't have jack shit to do with will. Dragons gale. Etc. I could go on and on.
PvE healing outdamaged? That's implying you spend only three momentum on the heal. And then you attack. So you gain, they get reduced, the HP difference enlarging.
They are almost comparable results especialy with the numbers you provided, even if you abuse extremes.
And what the fuck are you talking about min/max? 70 ski is normal number reached by people that try to get skill, in combat. So is will. Lowering the numbers just to support your own argument is poor.

I'm starting to lean toward the previously mentioned opinions that you do not know much about the games meta, so should refrain from commenting on it until you do.
Given how often you get proved incredibly wrong by various people, I thought it'd be appearant by now.

Edit : Before you post another essay, do bring up new arguments and look through all skills avaible. Maybe will increase post quality.

[Ranylyn]

1) I haven't been logging in due to my h key being broken (I'm cut and pasting it, huge hassle, refusing to get roped into RP like this) so I forgot about Terra Strike. Interesting. I also thought Dragon Gale targeted Defense. You encouraged me to log on and check. You were right. I retract my previous statement about "with what stats?" Sorry for the uninformed statements.

2) No, that's assuming 2x heals, not a heal and an attack.

3) Numbers I provided showed Graft was nearly 50% better. That's not "almost" comparable. And, the Graft numbers can go much higher.

4) I'm talking Base. What the average race can get with fairly optimal builds, but not min/maxed. Most races cannot surpass 100% in a stat, and will likely come up under 100%, likely missing a fair few growths (Statistically, a 90% would be estimated to miss 6 over 60 levels, for example. Sure, you can get all misses or perfect, but that's the assumed reasonable outcome.) Yes, stats can be further modified by class mods, equipment, in-battle buffs, etc, but there's a very good reason I'm looking at bases. Even if you swap classes or gear, a base will not change unless you LE. If you decide, for example, that +3 damage isn't worth the accessory slot and you really need some other effect, you lose that mod. If you swap to a class without buffs, you lose those buffs. A base is what can always be relied on.

But fine. I'll bite. Let's assume 70 skill vs 70 will + 40 faith. Because mods and buffs and 40 faith isn't hard to get if you level as a priest.

Rank 1 Meditate: 70
Rank 5 Meditate: 82
Rank 1 Graft: 112 (114 with healer's Legacy)
Rank 5 Graft: 122 (134 with healer's Legacy)

A gap of just over 50% which can be stretched significantly further if Graft was used on an ally and if Evoker was subbed. No. It's still not "almost comparable." And before you mention LB, keep in mind, it's the promo without the emphasis on healing, so arguing that is about as valid as saying hexer damage is low (as it's the ailment/debuff promo) or something similar.


5) When I'm obviously wrong, I admit it. As I demonstrated above. Do I do so often? No. Why? Because there's merit to what I say. I don't speak for the old pro who has 10 of every 9 star item. I speak for the average player. If the game were to be rebalanced so you needed 9 star items on brand new characters in order to even survive, most people on the forums wouldn't care due to already having them. But, this would also make it impossible to get into the game as a new player.

"The meta" is seriously flawed, and "balancing" the meta destroys viable PVE options time and time again. For example, I made a hexer one day. Main class hexer. To level up as a hexer. Crappy offense, very defensive, relied entirely on ailments. But wait! The ailment formula changed based on 80 will hexers (Which, realstically, really dampens a hexer's skillset. Need to get attacked? If it's all gone into will, with what survival are you using that skill with?) After that change, I logged on my hexer and got to turn 57 trying to inflict ailments. Failed every single time. Yes, with payback and a cursed weapon. Because I had the gall to not level as an evoker. The nerve, how dare I!?

This is why I will always resist seemingly well-intended suggestions like buffing engineer further due to them "being shit." Engineer is good for PVE as is. If it was buffed for PVP, someone would bitch about the things that are good in PVE and get those nerfed, neutering their PVE viability.

I know a lot about the meta. Doesn't mean I like it or approve of it. It's stupid. It really is.


EDIT: Too late.

[Rendar]

Fun fact: Healer's Legacy doesn't affect meditate, or aid. Neither are healing SPELLS.

Also holy fucking shit are you seriously saying that a class whom can go NYOOM and be across the board. Who can heal, do 90 other things, and still somehow be home in time for dinner...

Isn't OP? Please, stahp iit.

[Ranylyn]

Rendar » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:49 am[/url]"]Also holy fucking shit are you seriously saying that a class whom can go NYOOM and be across the board. Who can heal, do 90 other things, and still somehow be home in time for dinner...

Isn't OP? Please, stahp iit.

I just said to leave their heals alone. Nerf everything else, by all means, just leave their heals alone.

[Sarinpa1]

Meditate is base class ski- nah I won't really bother anymore. Re-read what I posted, your arguments remain unchanged and because you don't understand something it doesn't mean it's stupid. Think about class setups and what compliments monk, what would you main for what stat bonuses, how shitty ass builds will be shitty ass no matter how you tweak classes, on and on. Using only base stats is nice on paper but unreal in actual combat. Balance thread is about cutting down exploits. We're looking at the TOP results possible. Not average. Not lowest. Give it a thought, please. Look at your older posts and mainly them being disproved for inspiration.

Now I encourage we return to the topic and not flood it with very poor arguments.

[Ranylyn]

Sarinpa1 » Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:37 am[/url]"]Meditate is base class ski- nah I won't really bother anymore.

You know what else is a base class skill? Graft. And heaven Kick. Sidecut. Power Gradation. Fleur. Mad Chop. Cracked Mirror. Pulling Shot. Famiuga. Eruption. Air Pressure. Seeing the pattern yet? All of these are still often used extensively by their promos. Why? Base class skills AREN'T BAD. Look at Kensei. Normals are better than most of their skills. People use normals instead, if aiming for damage. Base class skills would never be used if they weren't inherently better than normals. Make sense?

This is elementary, something even a new player can easily see.

Now I encourage we return to the topic and not flood it with very poor arguments.

I do believe this is my line, as you have done nothing but attemt to discredit me as a poster, constantly bringing attention to older and now irrelevant times you did not agree with me, and have done next to nothing to validate your standpoint. Please keep your ad-hominems to yourself in the future, as I've had quite enough of your passive-aggressive bull.

Believe me, it's a sigh of relief that you said you won't bother anymore. Please don't go back on it.