"Lolzytripd" Wrote:the swords ENTIRE damage comes in the form of fire. Most people have 10+ fire resist
at 25 fire resist you lose 1m with it.
Yeah, I hate when people pick up 5 ranks into Pyromancy, and 2 into Cooking. Wait, that doesn't exist anymore.
Swords have a special attack (Stab) that makes it do pierce damage. This weapon is a wall of efficiency, and not being used by every single person in existence is not a valid reason not to criticize it. The amount of retaliation damage should be reduced, capped, or something of the sort.
You can use Stab to get around Narcus's innate fire element but that doesn't affect the bonus damage at all. Saying it's 1:1 is simply incorrect. It doesn't add extra damage to your basic attack. It deals a second hit of magic damage that is also subject to Mag Def and elemental resistance.
Ignoring Lolzy's reasonable request for calcs just makes your argument that it's 'broken' look worse.
I think Exxy's point about it being reduced by resistance is the fact that it's effectively compounded. I'll do some math below.
MASSIVE DISCLAIMER: Very sick. My math is using stupidly over-rounded and simplified numbers (Including 0 armor) because I can't be assed to spend another 20 dollars on medicine to get my shit together enough just for this one post. So if your concern is ass-pulled numbers, then please just ignore my math instead of giving me a hard time about it. We'll both be happier that way. Putting it in a spoiler tag. Skip ahead if you prefer
For simplicity of math, let's use 40 Def/Res, 0% Elemental Resist/ other DR, 0 Armor/ Magic Armor, and a base value of 100 damage for both combattants. I know these are not representative of what you can actually expect to see (I mean, no armor at all?) but quite frankly, I'm coughing my own lungs up and too drained to do anything more complex than flat multiples of 5. Sue me.
- Enemy attacks Narcus user. Narcus user has 40 defense. Takes 60 damage instead of the 100 it would have.
- Narcus user counterattacks. The bonus damage us reduced by the target's 40 res. 60 base damage, plus 36 extra damage from the Narcus.
- "Omfg ran go take your meds, why didn't the Narcus User get hit twice!?" The important thing is the ratio of damage taken to damage dealt back. I'm too sick to draft up several realistic turn order scenarios with movement and crap. If both hit once or both hit twice, it's still the exact same Damage-to-hit ratio.
- "Omfg ran go take your meds, why does the Narcus user have defense!?" I'm getting to that soon, I promise.
Thing is, the Narcus's damage got reduced by 40% TWICE. Yes, still it's a definite advantage in favor of the Narcus user. But do consider...
- The Narcus Retaliation damage only applies "on hit" which means it will not apply on Crystal Rose, Shinken Shockwave, Retreating Swipe, Incise Chaser, Elemental Rave, Rising Tide, Sanguine Star, Most Kensei skills besides Wazabane if you were crazy enough to use them without a Katana, etc. As the vast majority of these do more damage than a normal attack - usually roughly 20% more, we need to consider if this outweighs the retaliation. (Almost, but not quite. It would if they had any other DR/ Fire Resist, though.)
- In order to actually do GOOD Narcus Damage, the Narcus Wieldier needs high HP and low Def/Res, no DR, and low Cel. This is incredibly risky, and gimmicky. Honestly, unless they have percentage based heals, like Malmelo or Prescribed Hi Potions, this is most likely a death sentence against another player with a good damage output and any fire resistance.
- Most races want Sanctity. Sanctity gives some free resists. Although Stab does do pierce damage instead of fire, the Retaliation damage will always be fire. This means that, except against humans and corrupted, the Narcus retaliation will always be doing less damage than the damage taken would suggest.
Yes, it's strong. But it's also very restrictive, and counterable.
I've been thinking about it, and I think I have a comprimize that everyone can agree on.
How it USED to work: It would only save the last hit taken, and apply that. Also capped pretty low and often did 0 because pre-GR formulas.
Why it was changed: A 200 damage hit (Capped at like 60) could be overwritten with a 5 damage hit. Also, often did 0 due to pre-GR formulas.
What it was changed to: A stacking amount with a low duration so you can't just heal and release it all at once.
Why it's an issue: It stacks, even if you can't just save it up for several turns. It has potential to be very strong.
What it should be changed to: Save the single largest hit since the last attack, so it can't be overwritten with a weaker hit. Now that statuses are based on what has the highest level, and cannot be overwritten by a weaker one, I think this is perfect.
The calculation is not only the same as every other skill in the game, but easier, since it scales on nothing but the damage you take.
Take x total damage.
Gain Narcus LV x.
Attack.
Deal (your normal damage).
Apply all on hit effects.
Multiply x by (100 - Fire Resistance)/100.
Multiply x by (100 - Magic DR)/100.
Multiply x by (100 - Overall DR)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + Hunted)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + Analyze Weakness)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + 1v1)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + Fire Weakness)/100.
Subtract Magic Armor from x.
Deal x as bonus damage.
Exactly. The same. As everything else.
Take 300 damage, gain LV 300 Narcus. With 10% Resist, 30 RES, Wraithguard, 1v1 (on the target only), and a whole 19 Magic Armor, that's still returning a third of the damage taken as a bonus effect.
Happy? I even used high reductions and everything. God forbid someone makes a 1.2k HP Narcus user and smacks a target that isn't stacking DRs for more than their max health with Plisfa EI.
and are those numbers even a bad thing, some weapons are just good, its a different kind of strategy, sure it does alot if they take damage, and they have to go through the hassle of trying to amplify that damage, but guess what you could just have easily been amplifying another damage source.
I mean the fact that narcus was going around fine until just now makes it seem like ....just maybe.....you lost a fight to a narcus user...
"Soapy" Wrote:Multiply x by (100 - Fire Resistance)/100.
Multiply x by (100 - Magic DR)/100.
Multiply x by (100 - Overall DR)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + Hunted)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + Analyze Weakness)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + 1v1)/100.
Multiply x by (100 + Fire Weakness)/100.
Subtract Magic Armor from x.
Deal x as bonus damage.
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