[caliaca]

Rot+ is great and I'll always sing its praises but holy heck it should not be necessary to be able to crit.

Metal greaves plus gives 10 cevade (canceling out rot+ crit) for no downside like rot has.

Mathematically, it's harder to build crit than evade too as there's only 1.5 crit stats (.5 from skill and 1 from lck) vs 1 cevade Stats (1 faith 1 luck).

The only thing that makes this manageable is due to skill being something you build regardless.

I shouldn't just be able to have 120 cevade for playing bk and putting 30 points in faith cause boneheart.

It's way past the 85-90 mark that makes critters life hell. That's the point where most literally cannot crit and its stupidly easy to get.

Even if it wasn't bk this would still be 105...

Also i think a lot of values here are wrong. Most str critters hover around 100-110 due to horrible stat efficiency and unwillingness to use rot (for good reason no matter how fun it is, it's a huge downside). So 85 to 90 cevade which is incredibly easy to achieve takes them to 20 to 30 instead which is cataclysmic.

Bows aren't even the ones struggling here, they're able to crit due to easily getting to 140 base, they have other problems. Martials are the ones with crit issues.

[Poruku]

Yes, most crit builds hover around 100-120, and it's only with much investment that they can reach a good enough crit chance in pvp. Some class combos just cannot. Meanwhile, it's ridiculously easy for a BK to get 80 crit evade, and then you can push that above 100.

But I'll say again, it's impossible to put crit chance on strength. Crit damage works because yeah stronger hits. But crit chance makes no sense, you're not going to be able to hit certain critical areas more easily with strength. And being strong enough to pierce through armor or whatever isn't what a critical strike is. That's just what damage is, something you obtain from strength already. Critical strikes come from skill and luck, being able to land a hit in a weak spot, or land an amazing hit by chance. We can't just slap crit chance on strength, and it would not even solve the true issue.

Then there is crit evade, which is something you get from luck, faith, boneheart, black knight, metal gloves/greaves+, and ranger. The real problematic elements in my opinion is the first 3 however, as they are the ones that let you reach above 100 when stacked.

Still, many class combos are able to break through this barrier to an extent... Perhaps the solution could be to simply give every martial base class a way to get some crit chance? Nerfing CE would help, but it would also buff builds that probably don't need a buff, like the top end of dagger builds. I think a mixture of those would be healthiest. Lower CE a little bit from boneheart and luc, and add more crit to weapons who never get to crit. Just a 5-10% increase to the base weapons that are struggling would already help a lot.

[Snake]

I wonder how SL2 would be with hard caps on probability. Like 80% being the maximum critical hit you could have at all times on someone, and things like Poise, Northern Wind, etc only serving to add to your base critical rate to bump it up to 100%.

[caliaca]

It's definitely not impossible to put crit on str. Anything is possible. Chase your bliss.

I don't see how it wouldn't solve the issue either ngl. We can also just nerf cevade. I'm fine with that too. But non martials are generally fine.

[Miller]

But I'll say again, it's impossible to put crit chance on strength. Crit damage works because yeah stronger hits. But crit chance makes no sense, you're not going to be able to hit certain critical areas more easily with strength. And being strong enough to pierce through armor or whatever isn't what a critical strike is. That's just what damage is, something you obtain from strength already. Critical strikes come from skill and luck, being able to land a hit in a weak spot, or land an amazing hit by chance. We can't just slap crit chance on strength, and it would not even solve the true issue.

I don't understand the weird insistence on 'logic'. You can genuinely make an argument that critical chance allows you to puncture a vital area you otherwise wouldn't. You think you can crush a skull without strength or pierce through armor into an artery? It might be a slight leap in logic compared to more damage, I can agree; but saying absolute terms like 'Impossible' serves to only illustrate a lack of imagination and/or stubbornness in that regard. Besides, how is strength giving critical chance more 'impossible' than faith giving critical evade?

FAI/LUC being CEvade stats are not an issue in the slightest, stat investment should be rewarded. The issue is when non-stat sources of CEvade are significantly powerful for the slot they take. The biggest example, that we both agree on is Boneheart. Which amounts to a whole 25 stat points worth of CEvade investment. (Assuming you care only about the CEvade on said stat)

As for Strength having 0.5 crit chance not solving the issue... How? You're raising an average crit rate across the board, even builds utilizing non-STR scaling weapons would see an increase of 5-7% crit chance; which would make the barrier for completely denying crits even higher than before. Sure it won't be enough to stop people from building giant CEvade walls and denying them all together, especially in the case of weapons like guns which would need some tune up.

Adding more critical buffs to classes would certainly help, but the more buffs you need to rely on; the 'less' fun it feels (IMO) unless they're something akin to what Kensei just got with the recent changes. More upkeep to worry about often gets in the way of maintaining other buffs.

To be perfectly frank, it just seems like you hate the idea of STR = 0.5 Crit Chance rather than what it would do for the builds that would benefit from it.

[MothEnthusiast]

As someone that loses almost exclusively to crit builds, I feel like not enough value is being put into just how good crits really are. They shouldn't be easy to come across for the power they grant. Massive damage bonuses, extra actions that can also gain those bonuses to damage, sometimes even effects to go on top of it all. I'm not saying they should be impossible to achieve, but it's not exactly easy to build into crit-res comparatively speaking. FAI and LUC are much less viable stats to build than SKI (Mandatory) and, with your suggestions here, STR.

Personally, I'd maybe look into evening out the amounts given by SKI and LUC to begin with. .75 from each instead of the .5/1 split we have now. Doesn't affect the upper end crit builds that dealt with both in 60s, but inevitably makes it easier to build for most people on account of SKI being the more premium stat.

[Miller]

As someone that loses almost exclusively to crit builds, I feel like not enough value is being put into just how good crits really are. They shouldn't be easy to come across for the power they grant. Massive damage bonuses, extra actions that can also gain those bonuses to damage, sometimes even effects to go on top of it all. I'm not saying they should be impossible to achieve, but it's not exactly easy to build into crit-res comparatively speaking. FAI and LUC are much less viable stats to build than SKI (Mandatory) and, with your suggestions here, STR.

Personally, I'd maybe look into evening out the amounts given by SKI and LUC to begin with. .75 from each instead of the .5/1 split we have now. Doesn't affect the upper end crit builds that dealt with both in 60s, but inevitably makes it easier to build for most people on account of SKI being the more premium stat.

Crit builds when they work are strong, VA is an incredible contender and does a ton of damage because it has a ton of built in support. But the arguments in this thread are for a specific niche of builds that suffers significantly from stat allocation. STR based critical hit builds, namely the large majority of builds utilizing swords/polearms suffer from an immense stat allocation problem that only leaves them just barely able to afford the stat points to be functional. This leads them to be extremely prone to even small amounts of Crit Evade that is very easily accessible at the cost of 10% HP or 60 HP and minor stat allocation.

No one is undervaluing how potent critical builds are; most are simply illustrating how easily it can be shut down with critical evasion. Your change would make stat allocation easier for any critical based build and not the specific archetype in question that suffers severely.

[Snake]

STR gains Mini-Crits?

[Raigen.Convict]

Okay so what if we bump the inherent crit chance on a number of swords and spears up to 10%? Or slightly higher based on weapon? This way str isnt touched, axes arent buffed, and swords and spears can get some love?
Compile a list of underwhelming str weapons to add base crit chance to.

[Lolzytripd]

Give guile to 0.5 % phys and mag dr ignore per 1 scaled
Remove crit damage % from guile
Give strength 0.5 bonus crit damage per 1 scaled

Base crit damage becomes 150% or 200% based on how spicy we are feeling.

This solves the problem completely, and also solves the doomwall issue...