[Poruku]

When you say PvE you probably mean grinding. It's normal that summoner classes play more slowly, making them worse for quick grind, but summoner is definitely very powerful in event pve where the goal isn't to quickly clear mobs but to win. The class is slow, but solid. By that logic, healers and support characters are not very useful in grinding but are very strong in events. Also the dark rematches are also hard content that lets summoners really shine because it's all about being able to sustain for a long time, so you can keep sending out bodies to fight and using reihou. It's definitely good in PvE, just slow. At least GS auto summons a guy. Ruler also suffers from this but at least the pawns are not bad for grinding

[Miryn]

When you say PvE you probably mean grinding. It's normal that summoner classes play more slowly, making them worse for quick grind, but summoner is definitely very powerful in event pve where the goal isn't to quickly clear mobs but to win. The class is slow, but solid. By that logic, healers and support characters are not very useful in grinding but are very strong in events. Also the dark rematches are also hard content that lets summoners really shine because it's all about being able to sustain for a long time, so you can keep sending out bodies to fight and using reihou. It's definitely good in PvE, just slow. At least GS auto summons a guy. Ruler also suffers from this but at least the pawns are not bad for grinding

I mean in higher content in general, The class lacks damage, The youkai can rarely hit anything, Die quickly, and only two youkai become even decently usable. Without Chain unsummon they'd be unable to do most high end content. Add in the fact that Youkai aren't like the other summonable units and have to be brought to the inn or crystal to heal fully between combat makes it very hard to keep doing stuff. A full dungeon is very painful without the power of Chain Unsummon.

[Poruku]

That's fair. To be honest I'd be in favor of simply doing a full heal for youkai between battles. Making them uniquely susceptible to attrition is pretty rough.

I don't think youkai lack damage that much though. There's builds that struggle a lot more. I mean an individual youkai might not do that much, but you got a bunch.

The big weakness of summoner in events is aoe, since events mean you can't kill enemies very fast so you end up always needing to survive a few turns and that can be hard. But they have the advantage of having a lot of bodies that can draw aggro.

Imo if they simply healed between fights it would be fair. They're the only summoner archetype that has that issue and it feels a bit like an old thing.

[Miryn]

That's fair. To be honest I'd be in favor of simply doing a full heal for youkai between battles. Making them uniquely susceptible to attrition is pretty rough.

I don't think youkai lack damage that much though. There's builds that struggle a lot more. I mean an individual youkai might not do that much, but you got a bunch.

The big weakness of summoner in events is aoe, since events mean you can't kill enemies very fast so you end up always needing to survive a few turns and that can be hard. But they have the advantage of having a lot of bodies that can draw aggro.

Imo if they simply healed between fights it would be fair. They're the only summoner archetype that has that issue and it feels a bit like an old thing.

Youkai accuracy is abysmal...In sunken forest, tundra, etc. Most youkai can't hit anything.

[Poruku]

Yeah we should definitely raise youkai accuracy. That's one of the things I'd like to see. Summoners are so bad versus evade that they need the bomb. So why not raise accuracy and nerf the bomb

[Raigen.Convict]

My take on all this as someone who's been dissapointed trying to summon youkai time and time again... FIRST THING... Youkai should be allowed to regain hp and fp to full upon battle end just like monster mercenaries, it makes 0 sense why they do not as they are the ENTIRE KIT of a summoner, they're frail enough in battle, next, their accuracy could use some help, across the board about 190 accuracy at the worst is fine, like 220 at best if you want to give variance. Next thing, remove Sazae Oni's evade ignore, because it can hit you now, and maybe give it some crit, it does NOT need to be a free aoe evade ignore button for a summoner who has water attack, DISGUSTANG... HOWEVER... Suzaku, allow that one to stay... That is a single target fire attack which, fire is easily resisted, and absorbed, and has a unique function for the youkai itself... It's really nowhere near as oppressive as Whirpool due to its single target nature. As an Ascended it would suddenly feel unique due to being the only one who can do this... As stated above, the unsummon bombs are way too strong, and so are the stheno... halving the damage output on both would be nice but i'd say go as far as like was said, increasing the ammount of fp it costs to summon your next youkai after summoning one. maybe doubling it, so that summon storm is now necessary as a step to set up this nuke... Theeen while vulnerable for that turn of invoke there's counterplay... Now the big thing... I feel like Skip... Serves no good purpose... Time and time again this universal move has made so many stupid threads about the crap it causes... It's best if it's just left behind...It needs not exist any longer... It's not a 'tactical advantage' anymore when this game is an arms race of who can delete who faster...

[MothEnthusiast]

For the above post, just make Bleeding Hearts into a youkai equivalent of a Sal Volatile. An item belt slot that revives a youkai mid-fight.

I disagree about Suzaku, though. That thing hits like a truck if you don't resist fire.

[Snake]

"If the summoner is dead at the start of the turn, all youkai are unsummoned."

That's such a long requested thing by now. At least they should be unsummoned after they perform an action, so they can have this final "gah i will avenge ma mastah i will-- *poof*" moment.

[Miryn]

"If the summoner is dead at the start of the turn, all youkai are unsummoned."

That's such a long requested thing by now. At least they should be unsummoned after they perform an action, so they can have this final "gah i will avenge ma mastah i will-- *poof*" moment.

I still standby if that change is made it should be made to all summonable units.

[Poruku]

I would say it makes more sense for youkai since they draw on the power of their summoner to stay in the world. Automatons are literally golems that can act on their own, and bots are bots. You could kinda argue it for the shine knights though.

That being said, one of the most annoying aspects of this is that summoners get to diehard and revive later, coming back into a fight that should have already been won. It can even be abused by making your summon kite around waiting for the rez. For this reason, any user of summons has a big advantage and it's difficult to balance around it.

I would be ready to say "all summons die when the main guy dies" would be healthy for the game and balance long-term. It would just make sense balance-wise and would feel much less frustrating when fighting one of them