[Sawrock]

I do agree that Turn Order should be decided at the beginning of a fight rather than by round. Double-turning, while it can lead to interesting combat situations if it happens, is unfair.

[Shujin]

Yop I agree it´s pretty bad. The main reason I do not get the Intiative talent ever, cause it can lead to you getting double turned if you have no buffs to compensate.
I mean I do find it interesting in times to use a strategic "Aim Leg", once to get in a favorable position but I can see how unfair it is once it´s pulled off.

As a bit off-topic sidenote, Tekagen from Kensei needs to be relooked if that change comes however. Weakening yourself for a turn to be able to double turn someone was, while cheap, it´s main weapon. But I guess that can wait for after the issue itself was adressed.

[Neus]

If people want it to be decided solely by base CEL that seems like the easiest solution, athough it doesn't really stop Skip from doing the same thing sometimes.

[Autumn]

Skip can be combated back with Skip tbf, I'd very much like it to be decided by base CEL, I think that's a good way to go.

[Snake]

It's what I've typed here before making a thread at http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.p...amp;t=4986

Skip is only sad in 4v4 PvP, where the fastest person skips, and everyone has to waste a whole round counter-skipping to not get double-turned.

[Neus]

I made two adjustments.

1) Status effects that modify CEL aren't counted when calculating turn order, unless they specifically state they affect turn order.
2) Skip can't be used until Round 2.

Number one, the main culprit seemed to be status effects more than anything, since they are easy to apply in most cases. There aren't many non-status effect based CEL modifiers that can take effect mid-battle as far as I remember. The only things that come to mind are Rising Game and flowers, which are harder to utilize (and if you can double turn with a flower, I think you deserve it, at least right now).
Number two is just a consequence of First Move, which I don't feel should get gutted because of (an arguably broken) trait action.

I'd also consider these changes experimental for the time being. They'll be in the hotfix going live in a little bit.

[Kameron8]

I made two adjustments.

1) Status effects that modify CEL aren't counted when calculating turn order, unless they specifically state they affect turn order.
2) Skip can't be used until Round 2.

Number one, the main culprit seemed to be status effects more than anything, since they are easy to apply in most cases. There aren't many non-status effect based CEL modifiers that can take effect mid-battle as far as I remember. The only things that come to mind are Rising Game and flowers, which are harder to utilize (and if you can double turn with a flower, I think you deserve it, at least right now).
Number two is just a consequence of First Move, which I don't feel should get gutted because of (an arguably broken) trait action.

I'd also consider these changes experimental for the time being. They'll be in the hotfix going live in a little bit.

Rising Game is sporadic, unreliable double turning for a class with the highest and most disliked burst damage in the game. I'd argue this thread exists specifically because of Rising Game.

[Autumn]

Rising Game is sporadic, unreliable double turning for a class with the highest and most disliked burst damage in the game. I'd argue this thread exists specifically because of Rising Game.

and when you suddenly get outsped due to Rising game, and then you suddenly receive a Hit Hit Ether Invitation to the back and die, you almost feel a bit cheated when it happens, because there was little reaction time.

That assumption would be correct, is there anything that can be done about the CEL gained from rising game? The above changes look fine in every other view though.

[Nanovelich]

2) Skip can't be used until Round 2.

Number two is just a consequence of First Move, which I don't feel should get gutted because of (an arguably broken) trait action.

I want to see how Change 1 affects First Move before I say anything set in stone here, but I need to point this out if First Move's bonus to CEL in regards to turn order on Round 1 is not affected by Change 1.


I am, of course, appreciative of an effort to try and salvage First Move, but this change does not address what makes First Move cause double-turning against its user. I will assume this is a lack of detail on my part, as it probably is, and try to fix this for the sake of finding a better solution. In fact, I made a chart to show why Skipping should be beneficial to First Move's holder in this problem case (but is not solely because counter-skipping is possible.)


My examples will run on the assumption of a one-on-one fight, but the same things apply (in a more complex manner) to more populated battles as well.


First, let's get this pointed out. First Move causes its user to be double-turned immediately with these conditions.

1) The user's First Move level is higher than their opponent's.
2) The user's CEL is lower than their opponent's.
3) The difference in First Move level puts the user's turn order CEL above their opponent's for Round 1.


The problem comes with the shift to Round 2. The user's turn order CEL suddenly drops without First Move, effectively replicating the effect of if the opponent simply buffed their own CEL.

Assume Player 1 is the 'user' in the previous description and Player 2 is the opponent. Red areas are 'problems' and green areas are Skip uses.

Column 1: No Skipping
This is what our First Move user is looking at. Player 2 will be allowed to double-turn once First Move no longer applies. The only way to get out of this situation is for Player 1 to buff their own CEL, but odds are that if their CEL was lower like this in the first place, they don't have the means to do so.

But there is another way to attempt fixing this-

Column 2: Optimal Skip
This is the best way for Player 1 to correct the turn order and avoid a double-turn; simply use Skip. If they Skip and get to take their turn second during Round 1, Round 1 plays out like every following round should, and Player 1 is spared the double-turning caused by First Move specifically.

Buuuuuuut this is completely 'optimal' because the obvious move of the opponent will be-

Column 3: Usual Skipping
Counter-skipping. As always, counter-skipping just makes the previous Skip tactic completely void. Things continue as normal; during normal rounds, counter-skipping is generally a tactic to counter double-turning, but in this specific situation, counter-skipping provides double-turning.

... But, it hardly matters. In this specific case, the lack of Skip abuse allows the double-turning, unlike the usual case where someone skips and everyone following that person must skip to avoid allowing double-turning with normal turn order in place.

First Move turn shuffling reverses Skip's role from double-turn provoker to double-turn counter, and Counter-Skipping is reversed in role just the same.



So, my conclusion here is: Disabling Skip in Round 1 entirely does not do anything to alleviate that special case where First Move does allow double-turning the person who should be benefiting from it.


Unfortunately... I don't have any solutions to propose for it either. My only reason for pointing this out is: if the Skip-restriction becomes a hindrance in some manner, it can be safely undone knowing it wasn't helping with the First Move situation.

[Snake]

http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.p...amp;t=4986

This is better than an actual restriction based on rounds, I guess.