[Perdition]

Shorter post to break the chain of novels in regard to a point I’ve been seeing made in the latest posts.

For the people saying “just RP more at the public hubs” you’re completely missing the point. The above post actually touches on this to some degree but not everyone has characters that would just be chilling in the square or arena mindlessly sparring. So to those characters, is it “fuck you, this is your fault, break your character and go talk about sex and make shit puns like everyone else”?

It’d be another thing if places other than towns were things where people gathered or could be found for RP. But it’s not like that. That’s by the game’s design. No one wants to RP in dungeons because they’re brain dead. What does that leave? What we have now. The game needs more tools for player autonomy. When people mention SS13 they aren’t saying to make SL2 into that. They’re referring to things, mechanically, that players are able to do independent of any kind of staff. When it comes down to it there isn’t shit to do in SL2. Even with the upcoming crafting changes that won’t change anything. Let us craft especially interesting things if we amass a large amount of resources. Maybe let players perform upgrades to mechanations. Add more obtainable resources around the map and existing zones that are rare. Maybe even rare encounters for mobs that pop up every so often. Things that facilitate roleplay outside of towns.

These aren’t hard suggestions, they’re just examples of things that could be done. Ultimately I think community is a large part of this issue, but things can be done to help alleviate the issue when it comes to adding mechanics to the game.

[Mr.SmileGod]

As much as I agree with a large portion of these posts, 90% of them identify a problem, but not a solution. And that's fair-- I don't have much of a solution that'd make the game turn a 180, myself. Nobody does-- if anyone did, the game would be fixed already. One thing I haven't seen get much mention is the stifling of antagonistic RP. What I'm gonna suggest won't entirely fix this, I'm aware. There's plenty of problems with it, but I feel like it'll be a step in the right direction. Like a doctor rebreaking a broken bone to get it to heal in the right way.

Guards. I want to make it clear that I don't blame guard PLAYERS for this issue, but the way guards are handled overall. Guard players are doing their job, I get that. But when so much emphasis is put on 'there's guards here, you can't do that', it makes it hard to do antagonistic things. Or, hell, even things that would begin a conflict, such as gambling. Gambling is illegal in the empire.

The punishment for doing it anyway? Locked away OOCLY for multiple IRL days. Punished for creating RP. And even if you do it in a place where guards are not, it's often a 'he-says she-says' that leads in an arrest anyway. Or the guards magically get a seeker and go to the location of the crime anyway. And I get it, you shouldn't be doing something blatantly hostile in the Imperial City. But often times... where else is there to do such things? Either nobody is there, or they're 'traveling OOCly' because they aren't interested in RP along the way.

I don't really have a solution to those issues, but maybe something would come from there being substantially less guard presence in certain areas of Cellsvich, or the arena. Less a chance of magically getting a guard to come if you do attack someone in the forest, etc. And for people that do antagonistic attacks? People would likely be more willing if such an attack didn't always aim to remove a limb, or lock them in a dungeon somewhere for days at a time. But in general, it just feels like any hostile situations get too quickly moderated by a force of authority whose ultimate goal is to babysit, with the power to just lock you away if they feel like you crossed a line. There's plenty more to talk about on that front, but that's all I have for now.

[Perdition]

Want to reply to the above post--it raises a very good point and issue. A lot of the time if your character even has the implication of doing something wrong then they'll just be arrested by the guards. I know that from experience myself. It all comes down to the court of public opinion--and this would be tolerable if the punishment didn't mean a glorify ban from the game. Yeah, you get put in a jail cell, but what are you able to do there? Nothing. Maybe once in a blue moon someone is around to RP with you. Essentially though you're given 1+ days of being unable to play the game on your character. That's an extremely shitty system honestly--especially when arrests can be made over extremely trivial matters and when the character in question hasn't even actually done anything wrong.

I can speak firsthand that I'm less inclined to play the kind of antagonistic character I'd like to play because of how these things usually play out. It doesn't help that whenever something happens, somehow 15 other people gather around as the event unfolds out of nowhere. If you're solo antagonizing, then good luck because you'll easily be outnumbered. While one could argue 'just be in a party or antagonize in a group' that shouldn't be literally the only way to do it. Some of the most interesting villains in other media--especially anime, which this game takes heavy inspiration from--are those that act alone or represent some sort of overarching villain. It's impossible to play a character like that on SL2.

[Aqua]

Just gonna respond to the whole guard points that were brought up just very Briefly in the very last two posts. Speaking as a guard player and someone whose had several characters locked up ICly really, It doesn't matter how we change the system we use when it comes to jailing/arresting we can't please everyone, I'm sorry but that's how it's going to be and always will be. IC conflicts have IC consequences regardless of such a thing, if that's much of an issue don't antag really. It's not like we force you to not Antag, hell I personally encourage conflict with such things, it's something that creates Roleplay or an Atmosphere.

Having fewer guards in a place like that capital defeats the purpose of the capital, why would the empire not have a guard stationed in a place that's been levelled to hell by a terrorist organisation, it just doesn't make sense not to have them in every nut and cranny. Guards being everywhere shouldn't discourage you for creating RP if anything I'm sure most of the guard welcome such a thing. Just because we say it's illegal doesn't mean it should stop you although it most likely does.

Something as Trivial as gambling isn't really illegal as stated by GM's in the past, The empire doesn't care if you have a game of low stake gambling with your buddies at the pub for instance. However, casinos and the like are banned from the Empire due to their tendency to attract criminal activity, to Quote the GM Help channel so, by all means, go ahead and gamble, I doubt we in the guard would really care unless it turned into something majorly law-breaking or you build a casino within the empire.

Seekers on that note are exactly how they sound, they deliver messages to us, doesn't matter whether its a guard player or someone pinging us in the discord to the point we end up in a lose-lose situation where people don't like the fact we don't' respond to something or when we do they don't like that. That said I think that's all I have to say at least on those two posts. We can only handle what gets reported, to say the least, even then it's usually after said things have occurred and even if it's a "he says, she says" situation, it tends to lead to how the character would handle it ICly, it's not something like your reputation in the community decides.

That said personally the last two seem more like an issue with the guard system rather than the game itself but I'll leave it at that.

(Y'all can sue me for it but this is a general discussion forum so you know...)

[Mr.SmileGod]

But that's the issue. 'If it's such a big issue, don't do it' shouldn't be the mentality for something that shouldn't be a big issue to begin with. IC having IC consequence is fine-- but this markedly IS NOT an IC punishment. It's an OOC one. There's a reason multiple people refer to it as a soft-ban. A lack of antagonistic activity is the result of this-- and in turn, part of why this thread was necessary to begin with, in my opinion.

As far as Cellsvich goes, personally I feel like it has been given too much power lore-wise. Maybe it shouldn't be an issue of Cellsvich not caring to post guards-- but being unable to. Surely having every inch of their vast land covered in guards would be expensive, don't you think? (EDIT: More-so the Empire as a whole, not just Cellsvich, as far as being too omnipresent goes.)

As far as low-stakes gambling... Maybe? I'm sure there are a few guards out there that'd arrest for it, but that depends on the characters, of course. I haven't personally tried it, in fear of being locked up for OOC days.

When it comes to the next paragraph, I don't believe anyone really implied that it was a community reputation thing? Not that it matters, the result is the same. As far as the he-said she-said, I feel like most guards feel pressured into making an arrest in these situations, lest they face IC or OOC backlash. Which is very unhealthy for the whole situation, IMO.

Lastly, yes. It is a guard system issue-- but it contributes to the issues of the game as a whole. There's no one over-arching issue-- it's a collective of issues, and this is one of many.

[damycles]

So I've been hearing some folks over here talkin' about my brothers behind bars. Yeah, I get it, you guys got a point. Nobody likes the man puttin' 'em down just for trying to get by in these gosh darn trying times. That and from a roleplay perspective it is kinda shitty to just... not do anything... and be offline on a character for playing a character the way you're supposed to as an Antag. Now, what we have here is an impasse. On one hand... jail is shit. On the other hand... you do the crime you do the time. So here's a suggestion...

Y'all ever watch Shawshank? No? Just me? Only one with good taste in Morgan Freeman movies? Well shit. Alright lemme break it down for ya' then.

This shit's on us too fam. 

Yeah, the guards could just... patrol some cell blocks a bit more and maybe hang around a bit more at Arjav for us lonely convicts but that ain't gonna fix everything. Hell they got lives too and maybe the schedules ain't lining up. Really, the only way for prison to not be shitty as an experience is if it's full of real bonafide prisoners. In other words...

It's time to make a prison RP community. Cause honestly that's the only way prisons are gonna be better than just complete social isolation that forces you to tab out into a different character while jack shit happens. Prisons are great places in theory for roleplay. They have a history for generating their own complex subcultures and societies that are designed to work within the oppressive confines of Da Man's favorite shithole. If we get some mainstays in the cell blocks and maybe get an expanded map of Arjav to make things a bit more spicy in terms of the scenery, it might add a whole other dimension to the crime and punishment system that is currently being underutilized. Once again fam, it's on us. The updated Arjav map is something we can ask Dev to implement but that's just gonna be useless set dressing if there's not enough folks using it to justify it. So if you truly feel for your fellow man, make yourself a forever prisoner today. Get your contraband guys, your prison block bullies, your hardass wardens, and your cultured cellmates in there today and maybe you too can see a future where you aren't dreading getting thrown in jail OOCly.

[Autumn]

I will note out that we have had permanent prison residents in the past that haven't been restricted to being only guard players. I am not entirely sure what the process is but very likely it is simply talking to a guard player or Chaos about that subject.

When it comes to jail time I do agree that the current system is a bit flawed, but we have eased down on time since a little while ago, as it stands right now we're still finding ways to ease up on minor sentences but still make longer ones as impactful, such as with community service.

[iStabOreos]

So, I'm going to give a short post (hopefully) on this, and by all means take my opinions to heart, because god dammit I'm about to unleash the beast, so to start out, I'd like to say to all the people blaming Dev or X thing or not including XYZ, et cetra, and anything else of the sort.

*Ahem*

You smoothed brained mother fuckers, how fucking DARE YOU sit there with your self-righteous thumbs up your ass blaming the god damn Dev for well FUCKING MOST OF YOUR DUMBASS DECISIONS TO HAVE YOUR  Certified Safehouse RP and sit here and be like "Oh man, I feel like X or Y" because as I've seen it and I'm pretty sure you can see it too, or most likely haven't noticed you're shifting the blame onto others instead of your damnself. Now some of you made some valid points about this issue we've been having as of this fucking year when we're all practicing our social distancing regiment in SL2, but the event of house RP is hurting public RP as a whole. I swear when you see 80 plus fucking people online and you see absolutely NO ONE (public) in Cellsvich, Karaten, Oniga, Alastasia, etc. you may have noticed I didn't mention Dormeho or the arena, some other places because you see people there all the time, oh especially in the area, I see a bunch of people just having a grand ole time, in the GOD DAMN OOC CORNER! 

I swear I must've said this 1001 times by now, I don't care if you want to test your build from time to time, hell I do it too in my own player house with a bot next to me that's just 10 murai. I don't have to fucking come to the arena, because I'd like to go there for roleplay, you know the thing the game is based on since Sigrogana Legends fucking ONE and oh my god, sometimes half the fucking server is just there idled or fucking memeing around with their OOC tags up sometimes they forget to wemote because "Who fucking cares no one's coming here to RP, even when someone RPs FUCK EM!"

Dormeho is a different somewhat can of worms because it leads to my player house RP rant which most people already said, but whatever, I'll give my own two cents to this. I get it. It's a safe place to RP, but not 24/7, not with the same person OVER AND OVER AGAIN, not in a game where you know you're supposed to make a social character, hell even introverted characters walk around and at least fucking TRYS to interact with people, you know OTHER ROLEPLAYERS.

I said I was going to keep this short because I can just as easily call out most if not all of the bullshit some people in this thread is spreading, tossing blame to others, pointing fingers at Dev or people, you're just either ignoring the problem entirely or looking for someone to blame for you own fuck up when this is just a community issue. I'm coming off as volatile and angry as I am because this is a roleplay community, and most people here are pussy-footing around the issue and just looking for someone to blame. Maybe I just fucking care too much, because I'm the dumbass that made friends that I respect and care about on this platform, some I even had the chance to meet irl and I just want someone else to eventually have that experience. Or maybe I know that as a community of roleplayers, I know that we're fucking better than this. 

I just want to have fun and roleplay with other people again, not the ghost of a dead community.

P.S. Don't ever come up to me saying "Oh the OOC corner is there because people don't have to RP there because of the fixated thought of the 'OOC corner' instead of it just being the Badlands" fucking excuse. I'm not stupid.

Wow, I got deep there. But here's the TL;DR version:
   

[Senna]

Welp, since I'm online again, I might as well put my two cents.

The state of the game:
There isn't much to say considering everyone as pretty much put their points on display. The game is indeed 'low' for a bit now. People are playing other stuff and drifting away from the game. It is expected, after all, the game is, and I'd quote 'A slice of life' simulator. I'm not saying the game doesn't have danger, it is around, but it's up to the player to decide if they want to be a part of the danger and accept what's coming if they decided to do so or ignore it and keep the same drama filled with casual conflict RP. 

This falls under both PvP and RP situations. Everyone develops their character differently than others, that's just how it goes.

It's not Dev's fault, but the players if you don't choose to break that bubble, there isn't much Dev or the Event mins can do in that situation.


Game Situation:
The game is coded and set up like an MMO with RP elements at the side, I don't know what you're expecting once you're level 60. Legend extension is there to repeat that grind but the problem? When you make a game too grindy (Almost unfun), people will soon make different methods to get through the grind as quickly as possible or just flat out avoid it after a while. It happens to almost any game. Some classes handle PVE faster while others handle PVP better, that's just how games like this works. Yes, once you're 'late-game', you truly don't have anything else to do.

All I could suggest is more story, more content similar to the tombs but with more/different bosses, different high-level dungeons that offer something new each time. Special craft items, equipment, tools for perhaps special raids, and so on. Even special bosses that only show up at X time of the day during X time of the week and so on for a limited time. Something like the tower but grant interesting things but also randomize so it's hard to build a cheese/grind build against it.

Something that isn't too grindy else could remove the fun from it but make it something more interesting; such as giving the players a reason to do it, a reason to challenge themselves with good rewards if they pull through. (Rare but random) I'd also suggest anti-cheese so we don't have Evoker deleting half to almost all the boss health and skipping phases.


Comparing games (Just why would you even do that?)
I've seen people compare SL2 to games like Naruto RP, Dragon ball (Rebirth works well here), and Bleach RP. While I can say for sure SL2 is nothing like them, I've been on those RP games a lot longer than SL2 but the pure RP system works much differently than SL2's. Unlike those games, getting to a late game isn't as easy. You progress via RPing and interacting with people. Those games will have you progressing a character for over several months before you can see the fruits of your labor. Of course, it's like drugs when you get into a fight and show off your progression but it's different. Those games, your build and items/weapons aren't set in stone, it can change via IC events and developments are battles. In those games, you have no real control over anything, you can only build to resist the outcome of the faithful day someone or something tries to kill the character. SL2, you can set your build and make said build in 2-7 days without even RPing with a single soul. You're able to reach from early to late game very quickly with or without help.

So you can pretty much skip 90% of the leveling content and be on even footing with everyone. People only had 'fun' with it with the hardcore player challenge. 

All I could suggest is add rewards for RPing, whereas RP experiences rewards can be used to not only level character but also a hidden status. That status once leveled up grants X character access to 1 unique list of traits/bonus (You can ask the the community to make suggestions for these traits). And incentive to promote RPing and focusing on one character more than many. Of course, I'd also suggest increasing the RP experience based on how many people you're RPing around and lower it based on how often they've RP with the same set of individuals. To push people to leave and interact with others. Or just pull an FF14 MMO and let RP experience (Allow EMs to give RP exp after events as well but a bot to alert GMs when they use it) be the only options to break the said level cap but said level (Probably push the cap up or bonus levels by X amount but only reachable via rping), however leveling up is half efficient. (So 2 instead of 4).

Just random thoughts to help.

Granting people that actually RP and build said character with some rewards, rewards which will push them and others into RPing more. That's pretty much how those compared games work. Develop and get rewards for it.

Public RP
This is a topic I've seen pop up pretty often. People RPing privately thus not creating hotspots and kill the RP options for others. I know the feeling when the game said 40 people online but you can't find a single person. It makes you think 'Damn, I wish I was in one of those groups'. Ain't much you can do than just chill at one spot and wait until public RP starts. It happens; you can't tell people that they can't exactly RP with their friends. You can call it a clinic, cult, and so on but it's something that'll happen. If they have no reason to RP outside of the group, there's no reason to really bash them. It happens man, the fix for this, is more in the player's hands. Players can decide to make hotspots or move said RP in the public if it isn't too private for the home. Using the 'looking for' tab to point out RP spots locations and so on is also a good option, to let people know 'hey, if anyone wants to RP, here is a good spot or give a location for it.

Dev gave us enough tools to work with.

There isn't much Dev can do for us here, it's all on the community if they want to come out and RP with others or if they choose to stay within their groups and create RP with each other. Of course, It isn't good for the game but it's something the players need to decide on.

I personally don't like it but I understand. If you're comfy with such, that's just how it is. Just please, don't complain when no one is outside after you leave said house.


OOC Corner
Other people have put their points in on the OOC corner and so on about it.

This is kinda a location I'm okay with in a sense? I normally go there when I'm not in the RP mood (And have nothing else to do) but also want to interact with others, test build I wouldn't get the chance to ICly, find a spot I can AFK/Semi without someone RPing at me while I'm away, or just learn things from the more experienced players there. It's pretty much a little social spot whereas you can go without bothering anyone else. Of course, I can understand it can get a little crowded, giving off the impression half the server is there and not RPing but 70% of the time, it's probably 5 people at max, just people on 2-3 alts stacked on each other for it to look great in numbers. RARE CASES, over ten. It seems like this super evil that needs to be stopped but it isn't as bad as it's shown. 

It's pretty much that or the individuals just, well, log off the game which hurts the playbase a lot more.

Events
This topic is a dangerous game. People are asking for public events but those aren't as easy as you think. I've been to a few public events and helped in one. I know how crazy and how toxic the community can get from them. The thing about events is that, everyone wants their time to shine, everyone wants to be hero-kun and who doesn't want to be hero-kun will suffer for it since they won't be able to keep up. Balancing public events is hard due to, well you know, META BUILDS being a dick-measuring tool (And how easy it is to really make said builds). If their meta builds/strong build loses? The salt begins. So much salt you won't need to buy any for a few years. It reaches the point of people being ungrateful or flat out disrespecting the event host. Pure RP public events help as well but those can also get out of hand really fast, as they'll take hours to even get somewhere progress wise.

I understand why the event mins try to do more group/small events since it'll be a lot easier to handle and they'll have an idea how to balance the mobs based on which characters the players' register. Of course, I'd too like some more public events but once SL2 becomes a lot more chill as a community and the game needs a better balance point for that to work.

So, I'm hoping for something in the future but I'm not bashing/pushing Event mins to constantly make public events.


Villain player characters
I've said this before, I'll repeat it here, player villain characters aren't easy to play. The game has too many 'hero-kuns' to really do anything. After that? Goose said it best, people will avoid you like you have flu. You can try to do some little event for people but if you don't choose to just select a handful of people to be a part of said event, you'll have waves of people attacking you until you're captured and taken in by the guards. There is no middle ground or 'Let them escape so they can probably cause conflict and make more RP later' situation. It's either you do it, fight waves of players and when you're out of prison, people will ignore that character or you just don't and join the hero-kuns.

In some cases, people will take it to the extreme and start shit-talking/bullying the person for the attempt, causing them to either never play that character again or just leave the game. And people wonder why player villain characters are only group(Selected individuals) bases these days.

It's at least what I've seen.


PVP
That's for balance fu. All the PVP problems and complaints are there, I don't need to add that in this post. I'd only suggest Dev to check Balance Fu to know what the community is thinking when it comes to PvP.


Conclusion? 80-90% of the problem is mainly the community. The other 10-20% is balancing, bugs and so on. The only thing I'd see Dev should really focus on is more end game events/content and a reason for people to keep going/doing world events. That and a more incentive for RP, rewarding/providing rewards for players that spend their time trying to RP and better/develop their characters.

[Balor]

Reading more posts I have come to offer one final thesis.

Put up more LFG's, RP with the new players that show up especially if you're an older player give some new blood some clout so they can get their friends something to do. Don't just recycle the same cast of characters that have existed for nearly four years now.

You'll enjoy yourselves more and the newer players will too.

Word up, I've refused to RP on the server since this post went up. Since I feel like this post while interesting is going to muddle interactions and unless the majority of the people posting here decide to log on, interact with people they don't interact with, and try to engage in the tiresome dance of 'Do I jive with these people and their writing?' or 'Can my social anxiety endure this much stimulus?'

I don't see much changing. That's my honest take after lurking.

TLDR: RP more and things will get better. But it isn't that easy for all of us I'm sure.