[Lolzytripd]

actually kam thats fair enough

my hangover is gone now so sorry about how fiesty I was.

I personally don't feel the loss of identity is a full concern, the way it is now, the class can actually use all of its tools without spreading itself too thin.

If anything, perhaps a passive that the last verglas skill you used gave you +25%will/cel/str scaling to your weapon based on which tree its from



I just REALLY don't want to go back to how verglas was, Requiring 50 CEL/WILL/STR to just use all my skills properly...thats awful, intrusive and creates cookie cutter verglas



fist weapon scalings is their own problem all together.



and heres my one compromise if you really want old verglas back.

your unarmed fist Scales 100% wil/cel/Str depending on which verg skill you are using and remains that scaling until you use a verglas skill of a different tree, OR if its easier to code, Bear/Fox/Hare stance that changes your unarmed scaling, heck if it was just a 3 stage toggle skill, it could replace the str scaling of a fist will or cel.

[Autumn]

Honestly, mostly I just want the old verglas back because there were quite a few dream characters with the ability to deal damage in all 3 trees, and now that everyone can do it, it kinda seems less worth it to build WIL for a Verglas, or CEL, instead just going pure STR and SKI

[Chaos]

You're forgetting that back then, you weren't limited to an SPL of 3.5, and there was a growth system that you could potentially luck out on.

Lolzy has a point; corresponding to STR/WIL/CEL should be a bonus, not a necessity. Make the best Verglas' use those stats, but don't force it down everyone's throats.

[Autumn]

It's plenty possible in our current system, back then, most vergs specialized in 2 of 3 branches anyway.

[Kameron8]

You're forgetting that back then, you weren't limited to an SPL of 3.5, and there was a growth system that you could potentially luck out on.

Lolzy has a point; corresponding to STR/WIL/CEL should be a bonus, not a necessity. Make the best Verglas' use those stats, but don't force it down everyone's throats.

Using every single tree was never required. If you wanted to be a well rounded Verglas, you had to stat for it. A Verglas with all three of those stats could effectively use all of the abilities to great effect, gaining substantial combo potential over their peers who opted for only one of the three stats. Not to mention, putting points in these three stats is easier with this system, not harder. Gaining those three stats in specific was very difficult with the old growth system, because very few classes offered those stats together for high growths. Now growths are irrelevant, and people needn't raise a stat to 60 before it's called good. Couple this with Aptitude, and it's easier than ever before.

As far as implementing bonuses for using proper stat scaling instead of requiring it, I'm inclined to disagree. Why is it any more acceptable to shove Strength down a Verglas' throat than Celerity or Will? You can not, under any circumstances, run Verglas effectively now without Strength. Before, people could pick one, two, or three of the stats to utilize.

I just REALLY don't want to go back to how verglas was, Requiring 50 CEL/WILL/STR to just use all my skills properly...thats awful, intrusive and creates cookie cutter verglas

I understand this concern, but at the same time, Verglas has gotten far more cookie cutter than it was in the past. If you have Strength, you are the same as the next Verglas up until your subclass. Running all three of your disciplines was a challenge before, and practically demanded a very specific class setup for growths. Because of that, anyone who attempted to use all of the skills looked identical to the others. With the new system that is no longer the case -- stats can be distributed freely once those bases are covered.

Before, you could mix and match between any of the three subtrees and come out with a relatively unique setup. That is no longer the case, strength is king. I'm open to any other routes here, but when Verglas has passives that boost a stat that no longer benefits their class in any way, it's clear the promo has lost a worrying amount of its identity and uniqueness.

[Lolzytripd]

You are treating the multi stat dependency of verglas like it was a feature, it was a flaw.

if you really want that old feel back there should be an optional way to get that back, that doesn't force everyone else to deal with it.

Perhaps Verglas hare/bear/fox skills could change unarmed fists scaling to 45/45/45 will cel str

[Rendar]

>Flaw

>Not a feature

I kinda liked it. You had to build for it, and it made the class not "I have strength so now I can run this entire class"... which was the case with 95% of the classes if you had STR + SKI.

I could see it being changed in form.. and here let me tell you what.

Any skill used in a given tree swaps your "STANCE". Based upon this stance, instead of STRENGTH (which is pretty much all weapons) for your fist weapon, it changes to STR/WIL/CEL instead, depending on which type you're using (Bear/Fox/Hare respectively) for verglas skills.

Alongside this, four skills are now 2m each. Ice point greaves, Ice Point Guard, Ice Point, and Ice Skate are now 2m, allowing for better comboing from a class that relies on comboing. Want to Icicle spear? 7m now instead of 9, meaning it can take one turn to completely do it. Want to do a combo? Crawling Spikes > Cold Front > Skate is now a thing. Want a different combo? Crawling Spikes > Cold Front > Ice Point guard (or greaves) is now a thing! It inherently lets the class work a lot better with itself.

Thanks.

[Lolzytripd]

that like preferring an old car because its handling was bad and clunky

[Trexmaster]

Revised idea: Verglas skills replace the %stat scaling used in fist weapons with 100% of the corresponding tree's stat (Hare uses Cel, Bear uses Str, Fox uses Will). This means damage will be calculated as follows:

Scaled Weapon ATK = (100% Cel/Will/Str *1.5) + (Power + Upgrades).

From this new value, skills will scale in the same manner as they are currently implemented.

Bear

Cold Front:
70% Scaled WPN ATK
80% Scaled WPN ATK
90% Scaled WPN ATK
100% Scaled WPN ATK
110% Scaled WPN ATK

Rising Kick: Unchanged.
Point Kick: Unchanged.

Hare

Axe Kick:

70% Scaled WPN ATK
80% Scaled WPN ATK
90% Scaled WPN ATK
100% Scaled WPN ATK
110% Scaled WPN ATK

Rapid Kick:

85% Scaled WPN ATK
95% Scaled WPN ATK
105% Scaled WPN ATK
115% Scaled WPN ATK
125% Scaled WPN ATK

Face Stomp: Unchanged.

Fox

Icicle Spear:
38 FP, 35% Ice Attack, 100% Scaled WPN ATK
36 FP, 45% Ice Attack, 110% Scaled WPN ATK
34 FP, 55% Ice Attack, 120% Scaled WPN ATK
32 FP, 65% Ice Attack, 130% Scaled WPN ATK
30 FP, 75% Ice Attack, 140% Scaled WPN ATK

Crawling Spikes:
38 FP, 30% Ice Attack, 70% Scaled WPN ATK
36 FP, 40% Ice Attack, 80% Scaled WPN ATK
34 FP, 50% Ice Attack, 90% Scaled WPN ATK
32 FP, 60% Ice Attack, 100% Scaled WPN ATK
30 FP, 70% Ice Attack, 110% Scaled WPN ATK

Expanding Ice:
38 FP, 35% Ice Attack, 85% Scaled WPN ATK
36 FP, 45% Ice Attack, 95% Scaled WPN ATK
34 FP, 55% Ice Attack, 105% Scaled WPN ATK
32 FP, 65% Ice Attack, 115% Scaled WPN ATK
30 FP, 75% Ice Attack, 125% Scaled WPN ATK


Notes and reasoning:

• Cold front had a marginal damage reduction on account of the much higher scaling on ice point impacts.
  
• Axe kick had a marginal damage decrease because of the knockdown it can provide.
  
• Rapid kick had a moderate damage increase because it has no excess effects (Still useful against cobra, useless against matador, etc).
  
• All Fox skills changed to scale slightly more with primary stat (Will) rather than Ice Attack (Skill), to keep primary stat importance roughly the same as its Hare and Bear counterparts. The expected difference between Ice Attack and Scaled Weapon ATK was found to be roughly 1:2, so if this is correct the damage on Crawling Spikes and Expanding Ice should be roughly the same as they are currently.
  
• Icicle Spear had a sizable damage increase because it requires a large amount of momentum to setup and sacrifices a powerful buff (Bringing it to the highest scaling attack for Fox Verglas, like on live).
  
• FP costs reduced for Fox skills to an even 25% upward scaling from Hare because they were borderline absurd. Hare = 1.25x fp costs of Bear, Fox = 1.25x fp costs of Hare. Recommend an FP reduction tied to Chimera style'd skills in some way, shape, or form.

I don't know why this thread went so far past this post, this all seems totally reasonable to me.

The Fox tree could really use lower FP costs such as those suggested, as they did/do roughly the same damage as similar abilities. If not these values, at least make it actually get cheaper with ranks. Icicle spear really needs to get the higher scaling, too. It requires a fair amount of setup (and requires you sacrificing a hefty buff). Even though you could argue it sets up for Ice Skate/Expanding Ice, it used to do more damage than the other Fox skills for this very reason, and it should stay that way.

As Kameron already stated, the way it is now, you're forced to either build Strength, Sanctity, or split between STR/WIL using the spelledge fist to utilize Verglas. CEL is practically obsolete for utilizing the CEL tree (or well, the -former- CEL tree). So I don't think this situation is any better than using STR/WIL/CEL again. At least then you'd need to build for a tree rather than just getting everything for one stat (which as stated, you have very few options as to which stat is used).

[Neus]

I think the 'style switching' by using skills in the same tree has some merit. For example, being in 'no stance' at the start of a battle, using a Bear technique will put you into Bear style afterwards. Every Bear skill you use after that while in Bear style gets some bonus damage based on your (Scaled) STR. This would probably necessitate some slightly lowered scaling (-10% overall?). This idea also keeps all of the Verglas skills usable by 'most' MAs but makes them more powerful for those who buff up their Verglas stats.