[Argonus]

Mega makes a good point. While some races have abilities that rival some classes *coughpapillionhyattrvampireredtailcough* they should only be there to compliment the character and not be a mini class as mega put it. If we really want to have racials useful beyond low levels we should have some scale more on level, either by having some variables incorporate player levels directly or having periodic gains in power or additional features every few levels similar to what you see in some tabletop RPGs.

[Lolzytripd]

perhaps having lupine instinct scale on % of stat increases instead of flat numbers?

[MegaBlues]

I'm not sure if I was understood properly.

Races should have a -very- minimal impact on battle. Lupines getting a few stats at low HP is fine. Them having incontestable Blind immunity is not.

Strong racials should be brought down to the level of the weaker ones, not vice versa.

[Ranylyn]

On the topic of racials being best as minor: I actually disagree. Different racial skills keep things interesting and varied. If all anyone's racials did were tiny stat bonuses of +2 at most, race would basically be pointless and we may as well just have a single flat generic human race.

However, I do think that my proposal was misunderstood from the talk of races as "mini classes." I'm not proposing we add or change too too much, with the exception of giving some races different options for times their racial just doesn't fit a class or somethin. I'm proposing we give a choice to whether you WANT some skills to scale, rather than FORCING scaling, and perhaps alternatives for something to do instead IF you choose to not scale it.

Example 1: Hyattr Firebreath. The formula factors in a stat AND level. The FP cost also SCALES with level, even if you WANT to keep the WEAKER version for FP efficiency. Take a spell that has it's FP cost increase with rank. You can CHOOSE to leave it low if you rather have it cheaper than do more damage. You CANNOT do that with Fire Breath. Level up? Fire Breath automatically does more damage and costs more FP. You have no say in the matter.

Example 2: Take a wyverntouched mage for a moment. Say they need a bit more strength to use their tome well. What if they want to cap their poison at level 8, to give them 4 strength from Venom Drive (for a maximum of 12 poison damage per turn because they take half poison damage) as opposed to being forced to have level 30 poison (Up to 90 damage or 10% of their max HP, halved because wyverntouched, so more like 20 damage. Every single turn.) This difference adds up FAST, even when they only take half poison damage. Understandably, many wyverntouched don't bite themselves at all because of this scaling issue.

Example 3: How about Phenex? From the Ashes? Phenex kinda seems pointless with an FP intensive class, no? How about either being able to improve the activation threshold over time, since making it activate lower has been requested before, or instead recovering more HP if you choose to keep the threshold high. Or, if you don't want either of those, small tweaks to their ability to revive others.


I'm not going to lie. The first two examples (as well as Youkai skill scaling) have actually been my biggest issues in the whole game for some time. And I know I can't be alone in feeling this way, since a lot of Evoker/LB spells have had their cost scaling reversed and people bitched in OOC about nerfs despite being the same at rank 5 as before.

[Rockabye]

Now I understand a lot more clearly. I actually support this idea, if only because massive and unnecessary FP costs make me sad.

[KhalidtheGrey]

MegaBlues » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:45 pm[/url]"]Races should not be mini-classes.

Racials should be small, minimally effective bonuses, which rarely effect battles.

Even Kalestesia(sp) being immune to blind is the kind of overly strong, invasive racials that shouldn't exist.

Oooor we could make them adaptable and flexible, enhancing your playstyle, not that class or this class, forcing people to pretty much only use them because everything else is just not as good.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

MegaBlues » Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:45 pm[/url]"]Races should not be mini-classes.

Racials should be small, minimally effective bonuses, which rarely effect battles.

Even Kalestesia(sp) being immune to blind is the kind of overly strong, invasive racials that shouldn't exist.

Immunities are fine because it sets races apart (plus Blind at least does - 50 to HIT with Blind Fighting, and if you're already dodgy enough, it doesn't effect you who your opponent is, not like blind effects Mages after all), but if you want to talk about mini-classes, go complain about Vampires who have every skill under the sun (which they are supposed to hate but just blatantly ignore). All races are technically mini-classes already, so unless you want to get rid of their racial growths, and skills, they're not going to stop being like that technically.

Even then, races need balancing just as bad as any class in the game; without racial stats and skills, it's just be a popularity contest over who likes what animal / lore better. Humans would get picked slightly less. Right now it's a popularity contest over favorite animal / lore and whose skills are more profitable. That's what shouldn't be happening.

Zerans are a definitely prime example, they have great lore, but their racials are extremely limited, outdated by most combat mechanics or items now, and some of them are utterly useless (hey I can see FP, SO CAN EVERYONE ELSE).

Then again, you can't argue Kaelensia being immune to blind when Shaitan get two immunities, and + power to weapons (that durability they can easily bypass with Divine, just as a scenario to provide). And that's still part of the point, I've said it a thousand times, Lupines get shit on because they get the same skill every other Kaelensia gets, but they also get... 4 STR and DEF at 25% HP... that is... such crap. I can easily refute that with a +4 STR or + 4 DEF item, and then the Lupine has immunity to blind? Well good for them, I was already so evasive they couldn't hit me with their golden eyes in the first place.

tl;dr Races suck and all the old ones from Alpha plus a few others really get the short of the stick, so it's pretty unfair, especially when any new ones coming out will leave them in the dust. Even if it means adding skills, or making old skills better, something needs to be changed.

[Maikito]

MegaBlues » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:20 pm[/url]"]I'm not sure if I was understood properly.

Races should have a -very- minimal impact on battle. Lupines getting a few stats at low HP is fine. Them having incontestable Blind immunity is not.

Strong racials should be brought down to the level of the weaker ones, not vice versa.

I think things actually need to be brought to a middle ground. Stronger abilities should be made slightly weaker, and weaker races should get a few stronger abilities.

Really, in the end, what races can and can't do are strictly dependant on the lore of the world itself. Saying,"Oh, well they should only be able to do this in combat, or have only growths", is kinda unfair to the lore in a sense. I'd really hate it if my character was corbie and had functioning wings and it didn't do -anything- for me in combat at all. I enjoy racial abilities, they add a bit more flavor to combat and a little more fantasy to the world.

As for the main point of this topic itself. It really doesn't make sense for someone to train and suddenly gain new racial abilities. It's like saying if I jump enough, I'll sprout wings and be able to fly someday. We're not pokemon, we don't evolve into entirely different beings from smacking a few monsters. Perhaps something magic, item, or LE wise could change us, but nothing as simple as racial levels themselves.

[Ryu-Kazuki]

To me it doesn't make sense to "train yourself to enhance your abilities" on the basis of something that's genetically coded into your body and how it functions. That's just my take on things.

[Rockabye]

Depends on what it is, in my view. A racial ability is still an ability, and all abilities ultimately come from genetics anyway. After all, no one can do something that their body simply cannot do, no matter how much they practice. Maikito, your argument seemed silly to me. No one ever suggested anything as crazy as jumping to grow wings. What's being suggested is becoming more skilled in the things that a character's body is already capable of, and potentially find more ways to use them that they weren't aware of before. For example, humans are capable of swimming, but they aren't initially aware of how to swim. The ability and potential are there, but it takes effort to realize it. I believe the same principle can be applied here. I'm not saying that all genetic abilities are trainable, but it isn't true that none of them are, and it also isn't true that there couldn't be more that simply take practice to actually be able to perform.