[Shujin]

VAs have access to buffs that currently entirely outdo that little crit evade people can build without full specing into it.
though that could simply mean that those numbers are overtuned.

I also like to point out that while a crit evade can ruin ones combo of that one round, being crit while having near to no defenses (but building for crit evade), is also easily popping you for 200ish damage on a low ball. I argue that you do not need a 100% crit chance against someone who actually builds against it with everything he can reasonably fit in without being bonder/bk/priest.
I already think Crit Evade is too weak and making it too easy, the only reason why I think its fine as it is, is because IF you hard spec into it, you have a pretty solid chance of avoiding it even against VAs, unless they pop divine eyes I guess. But that might be flawed in itself.

[InsainArcaneBirdbrain]

VAs have access to buffs that currently entirely outdo that little crit evade people can build without full specing into it.
though that could simply mean that those numbers are overtuned.

I also like to point out that while a crit evade can ruin ones combo of that one round, being crit while having near to no defenses (but building for crit evade), is also easily popping you for 200ish damage on a low ball. I argue that you do not need a 100% crit chance against someone who actually builds against it with everything he can reasonably fit in without being bonder/bk/priest.
I already think Crit Evade is too weak and making it too easy, the only reason why I think its fine as it is, is because IF you hard spec into it, you have a pretty solid chance of avoiding it even against VAs, unless they pop divine eyes I guess. But that might be flawed in itself.

VA is absolutely an outlier in terms of the crit vs crit eva side of things I agree.

If touching the crit/crit eva balance is off the table, then I do have a bit of a wild idea that I randomly thought up of with my early-morning brain. Right now as we all know, rogues are by far the best basic attackers rn due to how much gui scaling and what it provides (flank and crit damage) compared to what str weapons provide. My idea is that some crit damage should be moved from gui into luck (with gui still being the larger source). The idea behind this is to give a buff to the str basic attackers who are struggling to build gui by giving them more damage on their crits while somewhat maintaining where gui attackers are right now (since they build both stats anyways). While this change still wouldn't give a non-crit build any real reason to build luck, it would give a buff to those who use it minus the rogues who have it good enough right now as is.

[Poruku]

Agreed, people who get 50 luck should be rewarded with at least consistent crits. Some builds really suffer from not achieving consistent crits and I think with the way things are balanced right now it would be fine. Building crit in this meta is currently just not very good because of luck. Paradoxically, reducing the amount of crit evade you get from luck compared to crit% would actually make luck builds a bit better, because they could afford a bit more laxness in getting their crit threshold. Right now you need at least 130 for crit consistent builds like MGs with the drive passives or cutthroat VAs, and usually you want much more. Even 1.5% crit on luck would start to help those builds make more sense by letting them put more points into defenses.

Another way of putting it would be, maybe crit evade should be looked at across the board. For instance faith getting 2 has always been a bit strange to me and it makes certain matchups really polarized for little reason. The fact is, crit is something certain builds rely on to function. So it should be something you can rely on if you truly build for it

[MakeshiftWalrus]

A tiny bit off topic, but I'll explain my reasoning why more crit per point can be good. Crit eva is a tool you don't really need to "build" massive amounts of for it to be valuable, as it provides a lot when it denies a crit on someone. Let's say the average basic attacker not building crit eva has 60 (mostly from luck), that means the critter needs to reach 160 crit before they reach that sweet 100% crit chance. Some people would struggle already to hit this value with buffs if they are thin on stats, and every point more of crit eva eats away at the crit odds. Even 80 crit eva can start giving headaches since a 160 crit build will be at an 80% crit odds, which is on top of hit/glance checks. Considering that landing non-glance crits in order to generate the momentum/get crit damage needed to not to just be outdone by skills, I feel people who build the crit stat heavily should be allowed to crit almost all the time. 

TLDR: Crit eva doesn't need to be anywhere near the target's crit value to provide MASSIVE value in a fight, since it's two flat checks against each other. If you look at it as a third hit/eva check for basic attackers on different stats, and you'll see why I hold my position on the matter.

Most people that want to crit would never fail to crit someone with only 60 crit evade. Let's go over the raw numbers, minus softcaps, because those are difficult to do:

60 skill = 30~ crit
50 luck = 50~ crit
Most weapons hover around 35~ crit if their function is to crit, and can go higher.

This lands us around a baseline of (Probably a little lower) 115-ish crit, or about a 55%~ chance to crit someone. 
Mind that this is a benefit that you, the attacker, also gets on virtue of having high luck.

Here's the funny part though, this isn't 'High crit investment', this is generally the baseline. What you want at minimum for a dedicated crit build, and depending on race, and class setup, this baseline can be even higher.

One buff from Duelist increases that 55% to an 85% through Attrait, and if they run Kensei, to 95%, or even 105% through Wazabane, which can be made a 105%, or a 115% through merely using Kagekiri first, and applying Sakki.

Bonder gets a free 30% crit from Fight As One, also skewing the tables towards them. They might even get full flanking bonus with the use of clever Youkai positioning.

Monk, if they want to crit, gets 30% from keeping 30 Ki in their box. They can also flip a switch for 20 additional stats aimed towards their crit pool in Ki Awoken, as well as instantly capping their pool in terms of Serpent Strikes, and fists tend to sport good crit damage in the first place.

Archer gets a 15% flat increase on virtue of being Archer, and using a bow. They also have the benefit of not caring about Black Knight's 30 flat crit evade, as ranged don't get docked by it. Bows tend to sport some of the highest crit chances too, although I'm aware they aren't in a super great spot in the moment due to scaling. I'm not wholly sure how Magic Gunner works after the rework, but you used to be able to substantially lower someone's stats through Vampire Shell, and add to your own, giving you a decent gap to work with.

And then, of course, we've got Rogue, whos class benefit is never missing a crit in its life, no matter how hard you stack crit evade.

Keep in mind that, depending on how badly you want to crit, you absolutely can, and should stack any variation of the mentioned above. These aren't every option you have either, just the most prevalent you might face.

All in all, no, 60 crit evade is not difficult to deal with, and should you run up against someone with, say, a 100 from stacking BK, and boneheart, you should be expected to bring your A-game, or be a gremlin by sabotaging them in case they're a heavy faith-build by pocketing dark water vials to yeet at their feet to ruin their day.


Mind that the stat-line for crit builds is attractive to them for additional benefits than just pure critical chance, and crit-evade stats is arguably not unless you're some kind of highly specialized lightning priest. Crit builds would not build less luck, they would keep everything the same, and just not have any trouble dealing with high CE-builds, thus making the seesaw even worse as now crit evade effectively becomes useless unless you have both 50 faith, and 50 luck to compensate for the one archer with a vengeance, which is also no fun.

I think crit is in an alright spot at the moment, personally. It's not overpowering, but neither is crit evade in the events that you dedicate your flow to critting. You're almost never in a situation where you have 0% chance to crit someone who builds ordinary amounts of defenses against it, and though yes, you might miss crits, look at it from the other perspective as well: Getting crit three times in a row every turn usually means you've just straight up lost the fight due to the damage people end up doing.

Agreed, people who get 50 luck should be rewarded with at least consistent crits. Some builds really suffer from not achieving consistent crits and I think with the way things are balanced right now it would be fine. Building crit in this meta is currently just not very good because of luck. Paradoxically, reducing the amount of crit evade you get from luck compared to crit% would actually make luck builds a bit better, because they could afford a bit more laxness in getting their crit threshold. Right now you need at least 130 for crit consistent builds like MGs with the drive passives or cutthroat VAs, and usually you want much more. Even 1.5% crit on luck would start to help those builds make more sense by letting them put more points into defenses.

Another way of putting it would be, maybe crit evade should be looked at across the board. For instance faith getting 2 has always been a bit strange to me and it makes certain matchups really polarized for little reason. The fact is, crit is something certain builds rely on to function. So it should be something you can rely on if you truly build for it

They already do if they build for it. While I can agree that luck on its own could get its crit evade lowered, I could never agree to critical chance being raised for the case raised above. Also, faith only gives 1 crit evade per faith.

[Snake]

Oof, what an empasse.

Maybe LUC should interface with Glancing Blows instead. The newest thread I put up has more details, but LUC's role in there could be of rerolling failed 'hits'.

[Balor]

I would not apply luc back into the evasion checks after we just removed it. If anything luc could be buffed with status inflictions. Or perhaps even as a slight boost in overall gold gain from monster drops. Etc.

I'd be game for more crit per point to be honest. But like that's just me.

Status Infliction, and gold gain seem the most nuanced and unimposing changes to me.

[WaifuApple]

I don't really want to see crit per point go up, for the mentioned reasons of devaluing crit evade. Switching out a slot that would usually give you a meaty amount of health for crit evade, building into the stat, and throwing a class in there for good measure should put you on about equal terms with someone who's pushing for crit, outside of the dedicated daggers. You're both pushing for something, you should both have equal room to achieve it.

As is, I think the balance of luck needs something else that isn't either of these. Personally, I'd want to see luck tied more to making special things happen, skills with a chance based on LUC% or some other value incorporating it, to do something. Value beyond just big number stuff.

[Snake]

I'd be down for LUC granting more gold, unironically enough. That's the idea that tickles the balance wrong the least and gives the stat another role that we could only ever see from a prayer that's a 50/50 chance to either help or screw up your grinding.

[InsainArcaneBirdbrain]

I would not apply luc back into the evasion checks after we just removed it.  If anything luc could be buffed with status inflictions. Or perhaps even as a slight boost in overall gold gain from monster drops.  Etc. 

I'd be game for more crit per point to be honest.  But like that's just me. 

Status Infliction, and gold gain seem the most nuanced and unimposing changes to me.

I would be fine with something akin to GUI's trickery effects tbh, though I'm not really sure what skills would warrant such a feature. To me, I just want luck to do something for people using things like lightning tomes who are not necessarily building crit.