[sadbot]

Gonna have to hard disagree as well there Senna, although disagree isn’t really the right word. If it wasn’t obvious by my previous post, I think the numbers surrounding these changes are in a pretty good spot. They certainly could stand to be balanced out a bit (even though that’s very difficult with this kind of system) as these changes are large and new. Unfortunately, the calls for some kind of revert are nothing to do with the numbers in most cases.

Ultimately, I think the new system is just annoying and unfun, regardless of balance between hit and evade. That’s why it should be reverted, just the new ‘everything can be dodged’ system at least. Everyone has to dump everything into this numbers game of hit and evasion. It’s frustrating and disappointing for the loser after putting everything into it and not being able to hit/evade. On top of that, autohitters are now incredibly boring due to being shoehorned into using a very small amount of their toolkit. Again, balance wise, obviously dont’t want everything ignoring evasion right? Gameplay wise though, boring as hell and killed my favourite class for me.

Tl;dr - the numbers balance between hit and evasion are irrelevant, it’s the system they play into that’s the issue. No amount of balancing can fix it not being fun for the loser and often the winner as well.

[Lolzytripd]

I like the current system when it isn't being min maxed and we end up in rocket tag or in the 'end zones' of hit vs evade (less than 25% or 80-100% hit against max evade builds).

As much as I would love to keep a glancing blows system with full evade on the table for a double miss I feel the herd of gazelles that is the playerbase are too afraid of either being unable to hit all the time that they build hit like lunatics or actively avoid needing hit like maniacs.

You could balance every single current mechanic being used to heavily skew the evade vs hit war and the playerbase would find a new way to gimp it, they'd start using cripple leg and cripple arm, black drain, vamp shell even more often and directly attack the base stats tied to hit and evade.

I am willing to step back to the iteration we tested without glancing blows if it would help people get past their evade phobia and accept that they will proc an evasion some of the time, if that means we can keep all the other benefits of the current system, including lack of, or atleast a reduced rate of status infliction on an evasion proc.

[Miller]

I like the current system when it isn't being  min maxed and we end up in rocket tag or in the 'end zones' of hit vs evade (less than 25% or 80-100% hit against max evade builds).

As much as I would love to keep a glancing blows system with full evade on the table for a double miss I feel the herd of gazelles that is the playerbase are too afraid of either being unable to hit all the time that they build hit like lunatics or actively avoid needing hit like maniacs.

Since you're so inclined to call the player base a herd of gazelles instead of trying to prove a point.




I'd like you take a look at this basic probability chart, this system requires you to have at least 85% Hit to ignore glancing reliably. Glancing Blows / Double Rolling in this manner is not acceptable by any means while Glancing Blows ignores a fair majority of inflicts and on hits/on crits.

This system requires you to minmax hit or you're losing a majority of your inflicts and/or damage.

[Shujin]

Ho boy, here we go.

Alright, first things first. I like to remind those people that claim this system has been thoroughly tested, longer than 2 weeks, that its not just about your testing. Lets be honest for 5 seconds. You testing stuff with 2-3 people on the testing server is entirely different data as when you have to test it with everyone. The majority of people do not even go to the testing server...Yet everyone is allowed to vote on a system. Which means the majority of people voted for something that sounded nice on paper and have their first exposure to it now. so 2 weeks is accurate. No one claimed that this was going to be fun in the first few weeks and months, but if you give up too early with the revamping, thats kinda just spitting in Devs face and we end up getting nothing out of this aside a burnt out dev. Its very clear that he is doing his best here, and I assure you its not fun for him either. So lets all try to suffer through this together and make the best out of it.

About the systems itself. OP certainly sums up alot of my feelings. To me personally the game hasn't been fun before the change either though, it was the exact same thing as now, the exact same spamming of certain moves just in different flavours that were then fighting in their own tier of who was even more broken. Just that it were Chads that can live on 5-6 stats versus people that need min 7 stats with high over softcap investment to even function, and then still be ignored cause 5-6stat chad just pops evasion ignoring moves to not deal with your mechanic at all. So its kinda the same now? just that the people that never were the problem of the system have entirely new (at the moment unbalanced) struggles, while the ones that were the problem before remain entirely unchanged or get even more Tools to NOT deal with what the main focus on this rebalancing attempt is. In my opinion that made this whole attempt obsolete and keeping many of the new things that are without a doubt good, won't change this.
You would be silly to attempt and go for a healthy mix between hit and maybe dodge, if you could forget both high investment stats and put it in fool-proof options. It doesn't matter if glancing blow for 70% reduction, for 60% just for 30% or 100% evade. Cause they will always hit 100% and they will hit HARD.


Though a few ideas I had when spectating fights have been centered about that one strange line that Autumn said.
Dodge is so good that it is actually bad. The numbers are in reality absolutely in favour with hit, yet dodge feels quite oppresive when it triggers that everyone feels the need to build it, expect the problem children but I ignore those for now.
Let me write up some flaws that the current design has in my opinion:

• rolling twice, reduces your actual true hit rate, yet thats only true when you are below 100% hit chance so overstacking becomes very oppresive.
  
• High dodge characters sit at 150-220ish evade rate if we include buffs, many classes however do not have actual hit buffs to compensate.
  
• Guile is a beast. Its scaling with weapons is great, crit damage is off the charts and to top it all off, it can give you massive boosts to hit, which has no counterweight in the system...Yet its something many people do not want, especially the magic kind. Meanwhile strength does only the scaling part and 3hp. Meaning it either does too little or guile too much. 
  
• The Value of Stats have shifted around, but some stats have not enough going for them. The main ones that fell behind are Luc, Str and to a lesser degree Wil.
  

Something we need to ask ourselves is: Who is struggling with Hitting, and why? 
I do not have all the Data for certain, and take my opinion with a grain of salt as I am certainly no longer as well versed with the game mechanics as many of you are after my 2 year break but I try to throw a pitch here:

I noticed one of the main people struggling to hit are magic reliant people, barring the evasion ignoring spells.
Solution idea: Give Will a little extra Hit (0.5 but probably 1.0 per scaled) however ONLY for magic (Everything you find in the magic tab in battle maybe tome basic attacks)
Reasoning: Most mages do not have access to hit buffs at all, nor do they build guile, so they need a reliable source of hit increase thats already in their build, cause most of them can't spread much thinner.

Strength does not enough compared to guile, making it less attractive for basic hitters.
Solution Idea: We could go the same path a Will above, just for skills. mind you though that if we add nothing on the evade side however to increase that number, this will be terribly unbalanced. alternatively you could just make it even beefer, buffing the HP it gives per point making it the more tanky option as most warrior arche types are, compared to rouge archetypes. 3 HP is just too little.
Reasoning: Strength is entirely inferior to Guile. It might also assist with the problem that certain people feel right now, of feeling like they ABSOLUTELY have to cap Ski. Or at the very least give you 1 more hit you can take. Seriously damage numbers right now are crazy high.

While Evade can be oppresive, even hard capping it, can still be 100% hit and guile is uncontested od the Status screen in regards of the Hit it provides. If the other changes would come to play, evade would be even more screwed.
Solution idea: Guiles hit increase counts to buff cap and give luc some evade back. Probably 0.5 later if that proves to be too little 1. 0.5 should be fine though if we keep 2 rolls.
Reasoning: Guile is currently the king of both worlds, damage and hit. While the damage part is atleast conditional, and the hit techncially too, the latter is very easily acheived. Making the hit buff it gives a constant threat in battle that currently stacking and even surpassing in effectiveness the current buff cap. Resulting in numeric inbalance between hit and evade on the Charactersheet. Luc is doing way too little right now, and I feel if its being added with half effectiveness as the Str/Wil hit buffs, it still helps those builds out while helping Highend Dodge versus Hitters to not be so onesided. If all of these cap with most peopel that currently do not benefit from any hit, gian some, while those that have to much get scaled down a bit to the cap everyone else has.


Thats some ideas IF we plan to keep the current system. I am not sure if I am a fan of the rolling twice thing. I think if the reduction through evasion is big enough to not be entirely ignored by autohitters, its also fine to not have them 100% evadable, aslong as those on dodge skills still work as an additional layer of punishment.
So I guess many people in this thread have said it already, but most of the changes work, minus the new Hit/evade balance and how punishing it is. Status effects at the very least could attempt to apply with a lower infliciton chance on glancing, then Luc getting status resist might even be worth considering.
There is alot in this system that works and made playing actually alot more fun than before to me, mainly that dodge skills actually have value now and skills like Sheath sword and riposte working against Skills is fun! But the things that cause the frustration at the moment are very valid and take away from the enjoyment.

#ChangeEvasionIgnoreSkillsToHigherHitChancePassCap

[Lolzytripd]

I like the current system when it isn't being  min maxed and we end up in rocket tag or in the 'end zones' of hit vs evade (less than 25% or 80-100% hit against max evade builds).

As much as I would love to keep a glancing blows system with full evade on the table for a double miss I feel the herd of gazelles that is the playerbase are too afraid of either being unable to hit all the time that they build hit like lunatics or actively avoid needing hit like maniacs.

Since you're so inclined to call the player base a herd of gazelles instead of trying to prove a point.




I'd like you take a look at this basic probability chart, this system requires you to have at least 85% Hit to ignore glancing reliably. Glancing Blows / Double Rolling in this manner is not acceptable by any means while Glancing Blows ignores a fair majority of inflicts and on hits/on crits.

This system requires you to minmax hit or you're losing a majority of your inflicts and/or damage.

I know how glancing blows works miller,  now here's the thing, Glancing blows, does the same exact thing you describe on the opposite side of the hit% you need a 15% hit chance to wall out being able to glance effectively.

I see glancing as more of a crutch of  'some' damage on a miss than a dr on what should have been a hit. I still think that to a degree it needs be changed though as you've brought up, I personally would only make a hit glance if the first hit is a miss.  I would make the outcome of A:Y B:N and A:Y B:Y full hits.


I still don't think that would solve the major issue, and that isn't building tons of evade or hit, its the easy way to counteract it through buffing and debuffing. With invisible weapon and brighten I can shave 55 of an enemies evade. With shine ray and smoke screen you can even more severely cut the enemies hit, I've had surprising success with builds with below 50 scaled skill and cel or tossing away accuracy parts for damage/crit parts using this mindset to attack evade and hit.

[Miller]

I still think that to a degree it needs be changed though as you've brought up, I personally would only make a hit glance if the first hit is a miss.  I would make the outcome of A:Y B:N and A:Y B:Y full hits.

This is a decent fix for the current system if it were to remain in any capacity, I can agree on this; this eliminates the issue of your hit rate% flat out lying to you which is one of the problems with the current system.

[sadbot]

I'm still of the mind that most people are far too hyper focused on the numbers here...

Even in a dream world where hit and evade are perfectly balanced, losing because you're out stacked in the numbers department, regardless of which side you're on, after dumping everything into it is just frustrating and unfun. There's enough variance around race, class kits and builds that this will always occur, no matter how well balanced things are.


The bottom line is that the glancing blows/full dodge system is annoying and unfun to play with. It's absolutely mandatory to play into it, to the detriment of build variety that this rework was intended to encourage. You either:

1. Play the hit vs evade numbers game. Someone has to lose it, and boy does it feel bad to dump everything into it and lose in such extreme, all or nothing fashion which glancing blows only partially prevents even in this fantasy world of perfect hit and evade balance.
   
2. You ignore the system entirely and spam evasion ignore, infuriating those heavily invested evaders all the more while making your own build and/or playstyle mind numbingly two dimensional and just boring to fight and play.
   

Point is, the numbers don't matter. Even if this, probably the hardest element of this entire game to properly balance, was somehow balanced perfectly? These issues would still stand. I think more mild mechanical changes to this system, whether it be to hit checks, glancing blow effects, evasion ignore or anything else, only serve to band aid a system that is just not as good or fun as the one it replaced. I think that most of the changes that came with it were great, but they would be better suited to improve balance within the previous evasion system.

[Lolzytripd]

1. Play the hit vs evade numbers game. Someone has to lose it, and boy does it feel bad to dump everything into it and lose in such extreme, all or nothing fashion which glancing blows only partially prevents even in this fantasy world of perfect hit and evade balance.
   

The only way to fix this point is fixing the  evade vs hit playground.

Taking away or limiting all the evade/hit debuffs and buffs or making the slope of the slide wider to accommodate both.

[sadbot]

Did you just not read the rest of the post, or…?

The point I was making is that the numbers are not the underlying issue and would not fix the system, even if they were perfectly balanced…

[Fern]

I agree with a lot of what sadbot has been saying. Honestly, after messing with the glancing blows system so much, I'm certain I still wouldn't enjoy it if the core end of it stayed even with other band-aid adjustments. I don't think it's a particularly hopeless system, just one that doesn't suit most people's cup of tea myself included, even under a hypothetically perfectly balanced version of it (which isn't really going to happen because no one has that perfect judgement anyway.)

I haven't had motivation to make dodge characters or builds in general after messing with the new system in live as well. Making a dodge character is suicide because no one wants to deal with the "unfun" part of Glancing Blows and Hit is heavily favored over Evade. Even then, I would rather Evade not have favor over Hit for the reason that I don't want to see "I'm faster than you and you can't touch me 80% of the time, outskilled" being every character's build due to the reason that the DEF/RES nerfs made most "tank" setups actually very squishy when accompanied by the scaling changes.
 
I'm waiting to see if anything changes before reworking most of my characters' setups because I don't enjoy the system as is and don't think it's engaging gameplay in practice. I enjoyed the Evasion! DR system much more than this one even when Dodge was at disadvantage for most of it, because I didn't have the looming thought that if I didn't stack hit, then my character would be invalidated by the million dodge opponents running around.
 
The other changes that came with the update were slowly contributing to having more build diversity, but the current system of Hit vs Evade nigh-completely pushed away the good of that by railroading you into stacking as much hit as you possibly can.



I express my opinion that I would prefer to go back to the Evasion! DR system we previously had if it's still an option, with different numbers while keeping the ability for dodge to affect status inflictions in some way. I feel that is generally the Sigrogana Legend 2 gameplay I've liked most out of all the dodge iterations I've seen tried out through all the years I've played this game. I don't even think it's bad that dodge worked that way before as a concept, I also thought it made it more unique in comparison to other RPGs as well.

But right now, the system feels (personally) demotivating, and is also painful to work out on the eventing front. My stance on the system after trying it out is very similar to the one from when we tried fully evading autohits back in pre-GR: I prefer evasion being a damage reduction because it's more fun to me that way even as a dodge main. That's just my opinion, though.