[Mikuel]

One big disclaimer before we move onwards, okay?

This thread focuses on PVE aspect of the game, meaning dungeon delving, event situations, raids and npc fights. I do NOT have extensive knowledge in PVP and I trust all the people who have posted about it to know better than me when it comes to PVP balance. Now, with that out of the way? We can move to the main topic.

As it stands currently after GR2 changes?

HEAVY ARMORS ARE NOT REALLY WORTH IT

So, what do I mean with this exactly is quite simple. The drop to def/res for each point was fine and I get it why it was done, but less known change is moving damage reduction from armor/magic armor from its original position of applying AFTER damage reduction sources to applying BEFORE the said sources. While I can understand why this change was made to some extent, it has hurt ability to effectively utilise "tank" playstyle with everything starting to hit relatively harder (around +20-30 damage from all attacks at level 60, assuming you had high armor).

And that isn't even my main complaint here. Its the fact that this change has made the main selling point of heavy armors, that being high armor and magic armor, near useless *when* compared to other armor types. Unarmored, light armor and medium armor have items with more desirable effects over what heavy armors can provide. And even in cases of good effects like dragon king armor, there is sadly one problem which makes lot of people steer away from them:

Heavy armors require investing into battle weight!

The above can be smaller or non problem on some races or people using light weapons, but the moment someone wants to use something heavier, they are going to need to invest more into the battle weight. Be it by putting talent points into packrat, investing more into strength, using lighter materials or floating enchant, they have to adjust their build for that which means they can't go the same way as other people when it comes to gear. They will be missing on few talent or stat point or have to use less than desirable materials/enchantments compared to just using lighter armor type. 

Speaking of lighter armor types, we need to bring in another issue:

UNLESS ENEMY NPC HAS AUTOHITS, DODGE IS MORE USEFUL THAN DR WHICH LEADS HEAVY ARMORS BEING LESS USEFUL!

Let me explain: When you roll dodge, one of three things happens.
1) You fail and get hit. Will barely ever happen in PVE after you get dodge build going.
2) You don't dodge fully, turning the glancing blow which is 70% damage reduction.
3) You dodged it fully, taking no damage.
With heavy investment into defense (BK/Hexer, shield, facing the enemy), I managed to get around 77% damage reduction. This sounds like a lot and to be honest, it is pretty good. The problem here is that the 70% damage reduction you get from glancing blows is the LESS desirable result for dodging. Even if it would happen most of time, dodging attack fully negates the damage. And sadly, you can't really dodge in heavy armors (none of them give evasion at base) so after all that investing into using heavy armor? There is high chance that dodge build will actually survive longer... Oh and get buffs too if you have right class going.


As last thing I would like to discuss is one of the reasons defense/armor changes were a thing in first place: Tanky mages were considered too strong with combination of earth/dark/water attack and def/res/vit, meaning they could get best of both worlds. I know this goes bit into PVP but since its in past and reasoning, I do not think its too much to mention following:

Basically none of the "tanky mages" ever used heavy armor in their builds!

From what I have learned, they stuck to no armor for power boost or some utility. None actually went out of their way to get bellplate or anything to cover themselves so there wasn't exactly reason to change up armor/magic armor for this reason.


TL:DR;
- Heavy armors and their main selling point of high armor numbers lost its value when armor was moved to apply before DR, causing increase of damage taken.
- Heavy armors will in most cases require at least some additional investment into battle weight compared to using lighter armor type.
- You can't really make evasion work with heavy armor, so you are kinda stuck into taking his.
- One of reasons for defense nerfs, "tanky mages" did not use heavy armor themselves.


So, I would humbly request either buff to heavy armors or making armor apply after DR again.

[Jeff]

So, I would humbly request either buff to heavy armors or making armor apply after DR again.

I agree with a lot of what was said above, but especially this part. As it stands now, from my perspective, the only reason you would really want to wear heavy armor is if you plan to take Indomitable.

Since so many weapons scale on STR now, I do have to somewhat disagree with battle weight being an issue; I think the battle weight requirements are fine, but as you said, flat damage reduction needs to take place last again.

[Mikuel]

Since so many weapons scale on STR now, I do have to somewhat disagree with battle weight being an issue.

STR does help, yes I agree. There is still cases of not having too much battle weight avaible, especially if you want to use gigantic enchant over tannin on any armor with weight of 20+.

But still, fair point that new scalings indirectly help with the battleweight issue bit.

[Snake]

With the new changes to Armor's location in the damage formula plus DEF/RES's values being decreased, I think the protection of armors could get a little more, yes. Unarmored Torso is a little too popular solely because of how it gives a lit of Evade and often comes with more than cool special effects or anti-magic damage reduction (ComC, for example).

Something simple and helpful for armors would be something like:

- Heavy Armor gains a passive 10% damage reduction and 10 critical evade.
- Light Armor gains a passive 5% damage reduction and 5 critical evade.

[Yashatari]

I have mixed feelings about this, But i do personally feel armor and defense should have more impact.

Applying armor after #%DR makes you tankier.
(200 * 0.6(40%DR)) - 30(armor) = 90
Applying armor before #%DR makes you more squish.
(200 - 30(armor)) * 0.6(40%DR) = 102 damage
Having no armor with 40%DR is 120

Using my example, 30 armor equating to just 18 damage saved is like a 2 to 1 investment.
Applying it after makes every 1 armor you can get your hands on really important.

Looking at Metal Greaves + compared to Ogata Waraji...
+5 armor compared to 10% DR.
10% DR shaves off another 20 damage if applied before armor, and 10 damage if applied after.
+5 armor shaves off.... 5 armor if applied after DR, and only 2.5ish if applied before.

As someone who uses Unarmored in most of their builds, I am strongly for changing the formula to be armor after DR
(Damage * %DR) - Armor
The only issue with this formula is if people stack enough DR and Armor, They can become nigh unkillable. But i'd rather that than have fights end in 2 turns. + Theirs always rampage and fray to deal with those builds.

[InsainArcaneBirdbrain]

After comparing some of the reduction values on my own time, I agree that armor in the current state of the game is near useless as the reduction is minimal to the point that non-BK tanks have little reason if ever to even consider heavy armor. Considering that Def/Res was already reduced to .9 DR per point, the potential of hardwalling people with tank stat gouge + armor is less likely. 

Buffing armor back up would also buff back up armor ignoring/shredding effects which are just as terrible currently as the thing they're designed to counterplay, and it would give me a reason run things like rampaging again over just the typical blessed/bloodhunt spam that plagues the hit/evade game.

[Lolzytripd]

You could probably safely double the armor value of most armors as well after reversing it so that armor goes second due to the def/res nerf.

[Shujin]

the issue with just doubling armor numbers is that "upgrades" feel pretty unimportant. Not the worst issue to have but...Its an issue in my opinion at least.

I already think that lack equipment progression is such a missed oppertunity thats a staple of genre.

[Neus]

I've adjusted it so that armor reduction takes place after general reduction (IE, Phys/Mag DEF) and elemental resistance, but before evade-based modifiers (IE, glancing blows).